Starting soon (gulp)

[Jilly]

We've had a quote from a recommended contractor, working off a full plans Building Control (BC) application for stage one of the stable conversion, it's about £100k for 60m2 block build building. Ie the building has adequate foundations and 3 walls will be used. (I know, I know I didn't get more quotes, but the other builder wanted a blank cheque, another seemed overwhelmed and didn't give a price, and this one has built a fairly priced extension for a very fussy friend to a good standard) 

 

The full plans route was chosen was to secure that BC are happy with the existing foundation/structure/loading, which they are.

 

My 'problem' is that the prices seem expensive and I'm wondering about just using this firm for the external building work/roofing/steels/drainage (approx £60k) etc which needs experienced co-ordination and then subbing the internal work: plumbing/electrics/stud wall/suspended floor/kitchen/bathroom/insulation because I feel (reasonably) able to do this and hope to save some money.

 

I'm resigned to the fact that I am paying about double labour costs for each job (assuming  £150-200/day for most trades),  for the benefit of his experience of how to co-ordinate everything.

 

I'd already decided to knock off his £4k quote for decorating and do that myself.

 

I know its not a lot of money in the Grand (Design) scheme of things, but it's all I have. Weighing up risk: it will cost me £5-10k in rent to take this longer route, and there is a chance of rookie error. It might be worth just letting him get on with it all...

 

Thoughts folks? 

 

 

 

[nod]

4K is a significant saving 

It’s surprising how labour costs can rack up 

There should be plenty of scope for you to make more savings 

Especially if you bring in individual trades 

 

Good luck 

[Declan52]

It's a well trodden path doing it that way. Most of the risk of encountering significant issues will occur before the roof goes on.

£4k saved is not a bad start. Keep haggling over everything once you take over the reins and the savings will soon mount up.

[Gus Potter]

Hi Jilly and everyone.

 

Jilly seems to have a common problem in that some builders are not interested, some are chancing their arm and one lacks confidence.

 

To really simplify things. To me self builders often fall between two stones. We know that we can build something, save money, "realise the dream" and have that satisfaction of just doing it yourself. We often have confidence in our ability. This gets you started and a bit down the road.

 

The posts so far are bang on but I have gone back a step to the beginning.

 

I have cobbled this together so it's a bit rough / not polished. I'll get my excuses in for early for the simplistic analysis,  but it may be of some use to someone. If you don't know what to do (say cost in Jilly's case) then you can start by ruling things out. This leaves you knowing definitely what you don't want and it can make it easier to decide what you do want.

 

You'll get good advice on this site regarding how you drive down prices, negotiate a contract, specify what you require and how you approach any dispute that may unfortunately arise. But how do you actually get to this point in the first place?

 

A builder may lack the skills needed for the sale but it doesn't mean they are a bad tradesperson! We are not looking for salespersons, we need good competant builders at a fair price. To the experienced members of this site.. remember starting out! How confident / experienced were we then? I try not to not to dwell on that too much, too embarrassing.

 

To get you started with builder the first thing that is worth a try is to get their interest, you often need to appeal to their pocket. Their is a saying that the number at the bottom of a builders invoice is not their registered charity number, it is the vat number.

 

To generate interest you can indicate that you are willing to pay a fair rate and make regular payments. For a small builder this can mean that they will get a bit of bread and butter work which leaves them able to expand or say chance thier arm with someone else in the knowledge that their mortgage is paid, cynical yes. Not all builders are like this and I would urge you to keep an open mind. Some for example just want to make a reasonable living as they may have family commitments that take precedence... they will still do you a great job though.

 

To expand a bit further. A lot of self builders won't / can't afford to pay for a site investigation. In Jilly's case the builder has no idea what they will have to do once they get into the nitty gritty and so will cover their risk. They may worry that should they need to do extra work you won't have the money to pay or become difficult. The variation in price that Jilly mentions is in part to do with how the builder percieves the risk to themselves. In all negotiations it it worth trying to see things as others do.

 

What Jilly could do is to say to the builder.. well if you need to go down and extra two feet what is the rate for every square metre of masonry, how much for the muck away, dealing with any ground water etc and how much profit  / uplift will you add to this. You as a customer don't need to be an expert to ask this you just need to get the conversation started.

 

This way you will encourage builders to engage with you. If they don't then maybe give them a miss.  Once they do they will often open up and point out other things that could add to or in some cases reduce the cost. Once you have their interest they will often help you, and give good advice as they want to win the job. They will often view you as serious customer and more importantly a fair customer. The firm/ knowledgable /decisive / negotiating type of customer comes later. You will have put in the work and can expect to reap the rewards.

 

If you can garner (fairly) interest from a say two or three builders then you will learn lots from them. You'll start to get some transparency on the price breakdown and then you are in a position to make an informed decision. You may start to see some convergance of the prices and be able to compare apples with apples. You'll get the odd outlier, too high a price and just as importantly the one that is too low, often best to avoid unless you are happy to deal with the spurious claims for extras.

 

What I have outlined above won't suit everyone. However, the construction industry is just as much a people thing as every other field. If this approach suits you then it's worth a try, you've not much to loose other than say a bit of time. You will however learn a bit more and gain confidence by doing so.

 

It does seem that at times the construction industry is more than blessed with it's fair share of chancers and so on. If you take take it one step at a time, learn as much as you can then you'll usually be ok. If you cut corners you run the risk that you may be a bit less lucky.

 

It's all food for though. The quote from Ruskin below is worth a read. With hindsight I suppose I should have just posted this and left it at that!

 

It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money – that’s all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot – it can’t be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

 

John Ruskin 1819 – 1900

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jilly]

Gus, thank you! For such a considered reply. I know this is a journey which I must be resolved to enjoy. I've sat on the edge for a couple of years learning, to try and minimise mistakes. I feel I've learnt an awful lot, from this forum, Dr Google and simply talking to people. I'm as ready as I can be. It's just happened this way, because of the quirks of planning laws in Conservation Areas, I must 'practice' on the actual house, which is on a difficult site, rather than start on something easier. I'm viewing the rest of the site as my pension, but I don't have a sous left to invest in it, so I will have to figure out a strategy for another day.