CIL and work unrelated to planning permission

[oldkettle]

Hi, 

 

We are hoping to build a large outbuilding in the garden which may become our temporary accommodation while the house is extended if we ever get to this. We obviously need to have electricity, mains water and sewage there. Is it safe to dig a trench for services and foundations of the outbuilding without informing the council of the work for the purpose of CIL exemption? The outbuilding is not a part of planning. 

 

TA. 

[Temp]

The CIL is charged on outbuildings even if they are covered by Permitted Development. If you need to claim an exemption for the outbuilding then NO you must not start before all the paperwork is done. The first few paragraphs of the Residential Annex Exemption Claim Form (Form Eight) say it must be granted before the commencement date. There are also surcharges they can hit you with if you get the procedure wrong.

 

Beware some web pages say "xyz is exempt" but it's frequently only exempt if you claim the exemption and follow the process to the letter.

 

As for your house extension.. you would need to make another application for the CIL exemption for that and notify them of the commencement date. 

 

When building the outbuilding avoid doing any work that could be mistaken as you starting the extension. Eg it might be unwise to clear the ground where the extension will go just because you have a digger on site for the outbuilding.

 

Edit How did that emoticon get there and how do I delete it?

[oldkettle]

Thank you, @Temp

 

I hope the outbuilding will not require CIL as it is not planned as residential, the ultimate purpose is a gym, am I wrong here? BTW I wish we had it built earlier as now all gyms are closed. 

 

I fully understand the points regarding works that can be considered related to the main build and the commencement notice. 

 

On that note, can I send this exemption  application and then the commencement notice before I have any building control documents? Maybe it is worth doing ASAP so that I am covered regardless? 

Edited March 25, 2020 by oldkettle

[nod]

The problem that you will have is that there won’t be anyone there to process you application 

[oldkettle]

1 hour ago, nod said:

The problem that you will have is that there won’t be anyone there to process you application 

 

Very true. But I am not in a rush, just need to avoid making a stupid and costly mistake. 

[Thorfun]

morning all,

 

firstly, sorry to hijack this thread but I have a similar question so thought if I post it here it might be useful for others.

 

We are still awaiting planning approval and there's a greenhouse near where the new house will eventually go. the ground floor plans from the architect that were submitted as part of the planning show the greenhouse location and it states "existing green house to be demolished". 

 

with the current lockdown we are thinking of moving it from it's existing location and putting it elsewhere on the plot so we don't have to demolish it and can use it in the meantime to grow veg.

 

so, my question is would moving the green house be considered starting work and make us liable for CIL?

[Temp]

18 hours ago, oldkettle said:

I hope the outbuilding will not require CIL as it is not planned as residential, the ultimate purpose is a gym, am I wrong here?

 

I'm reasonably sure what you use it for doesn't effect it's liability for the CIL. Will it be more than 100sqm?

[Temp]

8 hours ago, Thorfun said:

morning all,

 

firstly, sorry to hijack this thread but I have a similar question so thought if I post it here it might be useful for others.

 

We are still awaiting planning approval and there's a greenhouse near where the new house will eventually go. the ground floor plans from the architect that were submitted as part of the planning show the greenhouse location and it states "existing green house to be demolished". 

 

with the current lockdown we are thinking of moving it from it's existing location and putting it elsewhere on the plot so we don't have to demolish it and can use it in the meantime to grow veg.

 

so, my question is would moving the green house be considered starting work and make us liable for CIL?

 

 

I think it would be a risk. They could argue it had been demolished before a CIL exemption had been granted and a commencement date agreed.

 

https://www.goughs.co.uk/site/library/goughsnews/Breach_of_Community_Infrastructure_Levy.html

 

It was not disputed that demolition works had begun, but it was argued that they were only carried out to enable retaining wall structures to be constructed in relation to the planning permission and that this did not constitute commencing works on the development itself. Unfortunately for the developer, the description of the development granted by the planning permission had expressly included demolition and it was therefore concluded that there was a failure to submit a commencement notice and the appeal was dismissed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Temp]

https://www.kingston.gov.uk/info/200380/community_infrastructure_levy/1220/follow_the_cil_process/5

 

 

Quote

Starting work or 'commencement' means any material operation that is carried out on the relevant land, including:

 

• erecting a building
• demolishing a building
• digging a trench
• laying underground pipes or mains
• any operation to construct a road or any change in the use of land that is classed as material development

If you don't submit the notice

If you don't send us a completed and correct Commencement Form before you start work then we'll have to make up a date. This is called 'deeming' a date. We could also:

• make you pay a surcharge (additional costs) as enforced by the CIL Regulations 2010 (as amended)
• remove any right to pay by instalments and the full CIL will be due
• remove any relief

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Temp

[Thorfun]

Thanks @Temp . sounds like a risk I don’t want to take for a few tomatoes! 

[oldkettle]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

 

I'm reasonably sure what you use it for doesn't effect it's liability for the CIL. Will it be more than 100sqm?

 

No, it will be about 50m2 internal. But surely this way they might start charging people for sheds as nobody ever submitted the exemption form for those ? Is CIL not intended as a charge for living space? 

[Temp]

14 minutes ago, oldkettle said:

Is CIL not intended as a charge for living space? 

 

 

Some council's have published guidelines and they contradict each other..

 

http://www.spelthorne.gov.uk/media/15694/How-GIA-is-measured/pdf/Definition_of_Community_Infrastructure_Levy_GIA.pdf

 

Includes garages, car ports, fuel stores, conservatories, cleaners cupboads.

Excludes sheds, greenhouses, solar panels.

 

 

https://www.stroud.gov.uk/media/241065/calculation-guidance.pdf

 

Includes greenhouses and similar buildings (if a person can go in), indoor swimming pools. Has a different rule for car ports (depends how many walls).

Excludes Outdoor pools.

 

External swimming pools under cover will be classed as other buildings ancillary to residential use, 
are chargeable

 

 

 

[oldkettle]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

 

 

Some council's have published guidelines and they contradict each other..

 

http://www.spelthorne.gov.uk/media/15694/How-GIA-is-measured/pdf/Definition_of_Community_Infrastructure_Levy_GIA.pdf

 

Includes garages, car ports, fuel stores, conservatories, cleaners cupboads.

Excludes sheds, greenhouses, solar panels.

 

 

https://www.stroud.gov.uk/media/241065/calculation-guidance.pdf

 

Includes greenhouses and similar buildings (if a person can go in), indoor swimming pools. Has a different rule for car ports (depends how many walls).

Excludes Outdoor pools.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I actually read the first one as it is the first Google link and it is horrifying. 

 

I feel I will have to request a clarification from our council. A separate application may be due. 

 

Can you please comment on the exemption application before any BC documents are ready? I can't see a link between the two but would be good to know for sure. Basically, are there any prerequisites for CIL exemption application? 

[Temp]

2 hours ago, oldkettle said:

Basically, are there any prerequisites for CIL exemption application? 

 

Yes. The following is my understanding of what needs to be done before starting work. However I cannot accept liability if I've made a mistake. I've never had to do one myself.

 

There are a bunch of CIL forms here. Not all are applicable to all situations...

 

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200136/policy_and_legislation/70/community_infrastructure_levy/5

 

For something that needs planning permission I believe the sequence of events and forms would be..

 

Form 1: Additional Information (submitted with planning application)

Planning Application Granted

Form 2: Assumption of Liability

 

Then one of these depending on the project...

 

Form 7: Self Build Exemption Claim - Part 1

Form 8: Residential Annex Exemption Claim

Form 9: Residential Extension Exemption Claim

 

Then before you can actually start any work on site you need to do ALL of the following..

 

Wait for the exemption to be granted in writing.

 

Make your Building Control Plans Full Plans submission or Building Notice. You probably should start this earlier but you typically need Building Control to confirm they are happy enough with the drawings that you can start work from their perspective. Allow 4-6 weeks for Building Control.

 

Discharge any planning conditions that say "Before any work starts..." or similar. Again allow some weeks if they are complicated conditions.

 

Submit..

Form 6: Commencement Notice

And I strongly recommend waiting for confirmation it was received.

 

Then and only then start work.

 

In the case of a self build you must submit..

Form 7: Self Build Exemption Claim - Part 2

Within 6 months of completion of you loose the exemption.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Temp

[Temp]

If it doesn't require a planning application i believe you start with Form 5: Notice of Chargeable Development instead of form 1.

[oldkettle]

OK, I've just checked and two forms were already a part of our planning

 

1) Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL) - Determining whether a Development may be CIL Liable Planning Application Additional Information Requirement form (I guess this is Form 1)

2) Form 9: Self Build Residential Extension Exemption Claim Form

 

I can see from correspondence that Assumption of Liability form was required as well before the application was accepted but can't see it uploaded to the site. It seems our architect has finally completed it for the first application but didn't include it with the second one - and the planner missed it. I hope this is not a problem as Form 1 still says "liable".

 

So we are at a point where we must

>>> Wait for the exemption to be granted in writing.

 

Was that supposed to happen after the planning was granted? I didn't receive any messages or letters confirming it was granted.

 

[oldkettle]

A brief update

 

I have emailed our planning department to ask whether we were supposed to receive a document confirming the exemption on Thursday. Received a reply in the morning with an apology for the oversight and "CIL liability notice" document confirming overall total of £0 subject to compliance with criteria. I hope this pdf received via email is sufficient. 

[Temp]

I'm not sure if you need to send them a commencement notice for an outbuilding (it appears you do for an annex but possibly not for an extension). Think I would send one anyway before you start work.

[oldkettle]

15 hours ago, Temp said:

I'm not sure if you need to send them a commencement notice for an outbuilding (it appears you do for an annex but possibly not for an extension). Think I would send one anyway before you start work.

 

Yeah, the whole thing is clear as mud. For an extension <100m2 CIL is not applicable but we still have to fill in all the forms, so I will send them the commencement notice.

 

Interestingly, for the outbuilding he said nothing needed to be sent, but he advised to check whether we actually have PD rights - no idea why we wouldn't have it as the house has never been extended and there are no conditions attached to our extension permission either.

[Temp]

Perhaps worth checking the PP for the original house?

 

Planners can also remove PDR on a whole area by issuing an "Article 4 direction". 

[oldkettle]

2 hours ago, Temp said:

Perhaps worth checking the PP for the original house?

 

Planners can also remove PDR on a whole area by issuing an "Article 4 direction". 

 

Built too long ago, I doubt PD existed back in 1950 (did they?). I didn't find anything on their portal that'd mention limitations related to our house.
But I've emailed them to ask, I hope they'll just confirm it's there.

[oldkettle]

Gotta love the way they work

 

>> Having looked at the microfiche it appears your Permitted Development rights are intact. 

>> This letter is an informal opinion. If you require a formal legal determination as whether your works constitute Permitted Development you must submit for a Lawful Development Certificate. A fee is payable.

I.e. they don't want to confirm for free that the house has PD rights (not that a specific development is lawful)? Wow!

[Temp]

You are being a bit harsh. Nothing a planner tells you is ever legally binding on them. Only formal decisions like planning grants and certificates are legally binding. He's really just pointing that out.

[oldkettle]

3 hours ago, Temp said:

You are being a bit harsh. Nothing a planner tells you is ever legally binding on them. Only formal decisions like planning grants and certificates are legally binding. He's really just pointing that out.

 

Well, if they required FOI request and £10 I wouldn't mind. Again, was not asking them to confirm that I could build a specific outbuilding, just to say "yes, your house has PD", it shouldn't be a research but a DB check question. This way they basically force me to pay the full fee.

It's  quite surprising there is not a simple checkbox on a planning portal for this yes/no information. All that IT effort - and they don't really use it properly. In our case there was a full PP process so I'd hope they could make checks as a part of it. 

[Jeremy Harris]

Must be infuriating.  I had started talking to our planning officer just before they introduced the £90 pre-application advice fee here.  He replied to the last email sent before that came into force telling me that he was now forbidden from discussing anything more until I'd filled in the form and paid £90.  I chose to just submit a full application (as it wasn't much more money) and then continue the discussion with him.  At one point he acknowledged that the pre-application fee was causing more people to just submit applications and then enter into lengthy exchanges over details, which was soaking up more of his time than the old process of a few informal 'phone calls.  The daft thing is that pre-application advice isn't binding, and is a single shot, whereas submitting an application effectively gives you more than one go.

 

Sometimes I think that the people that make some of these rules really need to take a close look at their likely impact.