Indy

Some of you may have followed my other thread about the battles with planning permission - that are ongoing still as we come up to the ~3y mark in trying to get permission to build something we like. I'm now trying to change mindset from planning battles to actually building - even it may be a compromised version of the vision we wanted. All of the research I did about 2+ years ago has completely vanished from my memory banks so starting this thread to get myself back on track. What are the steps after planning is granted to actually getting the build started - given that we need to demolish the current bungalow and start from scratch? My limited list so far: 1. Instruct architect to do technical drawings and specs for door/windows 2. Engage structural engineer 3. Soil surveys - though architect says not needed as we're not refurbing and starting from scratch 4. Start the tender process based on technical drawings 5. Choose from a list of 3-4 builders 6. Demolish building 7. Get electrics, gas and water connections moved to a box at the edge of the property 8. Contact broadband provider to lay fibre to the property - is this a thing? 7. Lay foundations and start building I'm sure there are a million things I'm missing so would love to get some help.

Elmbridge

Some gems from our planning engagement: The planner forcing us to put a crown roof in the design despite strong objections from the architect and myself. Gave in despite increased cost and build complexity. Then turning around and using the crown roof as one of the reasons for refusal! Asking us to lower the ridge height initially which we did reluctantly. A couple of months telling us to increase the height to be higher than what we'd originally asked for and then approving that - never did understand that one! Telling us constantly throughout our Application #2 that the design was fine, had been reviewed and we had to wait for the consultation period to expire before we'd get it in writing. Then on the day we were expecting formal approval - telling us it was going to be refused and did we want to change the design and resubmit? Basically the planner getting overruled when he presented his case to the Team Lead, who needed to sign it off and obviously wouldn't. For application #3, insistence that we needed to get updated comments from all parties including the arboricultural officer that the planner uses - despite there being no changes to the application on that front when it was considered as part of application #2. And I mean absolutely identical in terms of tree impact! Waiting to hear back on Application #3 till the last day published on the application page, not doing so after 5pm. I then sent an email to enquire what happened and got an out of office. Escalated to the team lead and was basically told no one would be looking at it while our officer was away on leave, so we had no option but to wait. The LPA ignoring their SPD published on their website indicating that a high weight should be placed on high quality design. My architect took direct inputs from that document in our revised application to make it as smooth as possible and the LPA basically ignored it. Telling us that we were not allowed to extend beyond 3m from the current property boundary. We had to argue that this guideline comes from PD rights, and not when reviewing full planning applications that should be evaluated on the overall merit. Didn't work - forced us to scale the size of the property back. Weird interpretation of the 45deg light/shadowing rules which meant that we had very specific endpoints both at the front and end of the property, boxing us in to a very specific size - despite our model showing that we fully complied to the national guidelines. Gave up arguing this in the end to the LPAs own and incorrect interpretation.

Following a couple of posts in other threads on the forum – this is the first time I’m actively posting after almost a year or so away. I guess this post is mainly going to be a summary of what’s happened in all that time and mainly acts as catharsis for me as it’s been a very up/down journey since we started the whole process in Aug 2021. Application #1 As some of the members may remember, our planning application went in Mar 2022 after we started the design in Aug 2021. This was outright denied by the LPA with no engagement at all, no clarifications sought, no comments invited by our architect and planning consultant. Applied in Mar 2022 and denied in Aug 2022. 1 year from starting the process. Very disappointed as we didn’t know until the day of the refusal being received which way the planner was leaning. Application #2 Picked myself up after a couple of weeks of moping, engaged with the architect again and decided to go in for pre-app. Booked a slot in Dec 2022 just before Christmas and went through 3 options wth the planning officer: Option A – Plan that we presented and was refused. Too big and bulky and too contemporary. Option B – Halfway house between what we wanted and what the council wanted. Option C – tamest design, basically a new build dormer bungalow that the LPA wanted us to build to retain ‘aesthetics’ Went back and forth on the options and both parties (me, architect, chartered planner AND the planning officer on the other side) agreed that Option B with some tweaks would be acceptable. Worked the design based on their inputs, got the new ecology/tree/bat surveys done and submitted in Mar 2022. Decent engagement through the application (as we had paid for the pre-app, which seemed to unlock access to the Planning officer) – major rework throughout the consultation period and were given a verbal agreement that our revised design was acceptable. They needed to run a 4w consultation again in the middle of app – which we agreed to. On the day that we were due to hear back with a rubber stamping of the application – complete gut punch, it was refused completely. The reason was basically the LPA team leader overruling the planning officer’s advice and telling us that Option C would be the only option acceptable. We asked for them to refuse so we could appeal. This finally arrived in Jul 2023. 2years in with no next steps clear. Application #3 3. Decided to appeal the refused application as architect + planner thought we had a very strong case to appeal with costs. Submitted in Aug 2023 and still waiting to hear back on what’s going to happen. Been 2m since the application went in and it hasn’t been validated as yet by the Planning Inspectorate. Could be another 6-8m before we hear leading us well into Q2 2024. Application #4 In the meantime, we submitted Option C drawings to the council to get them approved anyway for the sake of a £500 application fee. This was done and came back last week so in theory we do have plans approved on something my wife and I both dislike. Summary: • 2 years and 4m in – we have approval to build a rather boring dormer bungalow replacement. • No idea on whether the slightly more contemporary design we want to build will be approved – won’t find out for another 6m or so. • Realistically, earliest time we’d be able to start building based on whether we win the appeal or not would be summer 2024 – 3y after getting the plot. In the meantime, life and the world has moved on. The primary driver for doing this was for schools for the kids – and the fact that its been delayed so long means they’ve started school locally where we are already. This massively reduces the drive to move as it would mean disruption to their academic calendar and the 7+ prep exams that the older one would be preparing for. Engagement from the council made it clear that they’re not interested in high quality contemporary design – all they want is to cling to an aesthetic from 50-70y ago, and any risky decisions should be taken by the Planning Inspectorate rather than the LPA itself. Cost of borrowing and building has gone through the roof – really putting the viability of the whole thing into question. Do I really want to borrow at 6% rather than 2% (realistically higher as self build mortgages are riskier) to move to a place where the council don’t want us, when it would cause so much disruption to our personal lives? Also, do I really want to invest so much right now given that end prices have stalled/crashed so the break even may not even be possible? Like I said – there’s not much point to this point apart from summarising what’s happened over the last 2 and bit years and I can see why people are put off on ever taking on a self build. The whole planning system is broken, understaffed and not fit for purpose. All this talk of building our way out of the problem blah blah blah I see is complete and utter tosh. We have a system that bottlenecks any such endeavours and it doesn’t seem to be going away any time soon.

It wasn't s106 part that was confusing - my point was more focussed on whether land prices will go down or not really.

I agree with the points made above though the use case drastically reduces to those that have massive cash reserves and can finance purely out of savings. Borrowing at current IRs makes little sense as there is no light at the end of the tunnel - i.e. complete the development and then remortgage to a domestic product at reduced rates. There is no concept of reduced rates at least for the foreseeable future and long term predictions are all around 4-5%. I'm not sure I fully agree that land prices won't come down as a result. For very old and large landowners with little borrowing - sure, they can afford to wait it out and see what happens. For anyone who bought in the last 2-5y, their financials won't stack up anymore and I'm guessing more of these plots with PP will start to hit the market.

Returning to this forum after almost a year away - where we've been stuck in planning hell (and still no resolution in sight). This is the exact question I ponder over most days now. When I originally started my journey in 2021, IRs were 2% and build prices were being quoted at about £2k-£3k/m2 , with some outlandish quotes around £3.5-£4.5k/m2. Pricey in London/SE but just about doable as the end result would have been worth the investment, hard work and effort - in the sense that you would at least be safe in the knowledge that your capital would be recoverable if you were forced to sell. 2 years on, IRs are triple that (higher for self build mortgages) and the parts/labour rates for self building also seem to have crept up and stayed up. Even assuming extreme cost engineering, I can't see how you could bring it in for less than £2.5k/m2. If you factor in the cost of the land, the investment in a self build doesn't really stack up anymore as you're unlikely to break even, let alone build any equity. It probably costs less now to look for something already done or wait for another 6m and see how the market plays out. One thing I have seen is a lot of plots now coming on to the market with planning permission granted - stuff that would be very rare pre 2021. This is surely the developer community realising that it's not worth it for the small chance of a return and cashing in any gains realised by getting PP on the land/plot.

No direct suggestions but I'd heavily suggest going down this route. Find consultants who have dealt with your LPA, have some sort of relationship with them and understand what they want, which format they want it in etc. Local knowledge can be incredibly helpful in shaving off valuable time.

https://kewjoinery.co.uk/ Friends of ours have used them. Very good but also very expensive.

It looks like you have done your research on costs so good luck, but my personal view is that you'll end up nearer to the £2.5k/m2 mark. You may save a little if you leave the basement unfinished and just an empty box but there are still going to be major costs when building a basement and getting it waterproofed and ready for human habitation. The exterior of the house is fantastic, following this thread as there are some really neat ideas that I may borrow for our build (when it actually starts 😟)

Personally: 1. I'd move the pantry and combine the utility, boot room and pantry into one large space. The current pantry seems to block the flow and makes your large open plan area look smaller. 2. Swap the position of the kitchen and dining so that the kitchen is at the back and looking out over the gardens

I've found the same thing with my quote from Estimators Online - found it far too low given what everyone else including the architect seems to be indicating. For build and materials, their estimate was about £350k for a 300sq m build - far too low, even with missing some big ticket items (Kitchen, Solar PV, MVHR etc). It did help in getting the breakdown and at least having some reference costs that we can use as a yardstick to measure against, though I'm not sure how much luck we'd have in getting a builder to actually price match or beat their quotes. What doesnt help is also the general uncertainty around pricing almost everything. Not sure how things worked pre 2020, but since COVID and energy price hikes - estimating anything beyond 4-8 weeks seems akin to crystal ball gazing!

Been a while since I last posted, but we had the bad news of our planning application being refused for a number of different reasons. Going through the combined process of appeal (which the architect thinks we'll win) but also tweaking the current design to address some of the points raised in the refusal. One of the things (not a cause for refusal) is that our current finish on the house (masonry or ICF construction) is white render all the way through. I do like the look of this but have recently seen a lot of examples in person where the render starts looking rough after a few years, green marks near the base etc. Want to look at alternatives to this which would be lower maintenance, as I think we'll have to end up repainting the render finish every 5 years or so to keep it looking fresh. What options are there - light/white coloured that would give us durability? I do like the thought of some sort of stone cladding that would be durable enough but not sure how this would work and how expensive it could end up being?

On the topic of balance, what I've gathered from this forum and talking to a lot of other professionals is a fabric first approach. Invest in the building blocks and these will add value to the place in the long term. While you may not care about a concrete tile, the person you're going to try and sell to in the future may not want concrete tiles on a £2m+ house (or some other similar detail that may put them off like uPVC guttering). The areas where you can spend a lot of money very very quickly like AV, home automation, expensive kitchens and bathrooms - are those that will not necessarily add that much 'value' when considering resale in the future, apart from the value that they give you when you're using them. Kitchen styles and designs will change in the next 5 years and you will most likely want to change again, so not worth going over the top. Same with AV kit, depreciates over time and newer tech will make the current stuff obsolete in 5 years anyway. Obviously a lot of this is based on you wanting to get your money back. What you consider as essential, the next person may not and won't be willing to pay for it. If you don't need to sell and this will be a lifetime home, and you can afford to do it - then go for it. Its your money, you're allowed to build exactly what you want and that's the whole point of the self build method.

I do agree that getting a reputed contractor or builder to quote for less than £3.5k/m2 is fanciful thinking, especially in the pricey parts of the south east. Not that it can’t be done. You either roll up your sleeves and take charge of the project by taking on the PM role and finding subcontractors to do the job, OR you can take a punt on smaller/relatively unknown builder who’s trying to establish themselves. Not sure which I’m going to go personally but I’ve been getting much more reasonable quotes on the latter approach - c£2k/m2. Not a fully top end finish (no home automation or arrays of sensors for example), but mid to high end finishes and certainly no skimping on anything material.

Without having gone through the quote in detail, your cost/m2 is roughly in the region of what I've been getting for a similarly sized house in the South East (Surrey in my case). £3.5k/m2 for a full turnkey build and that includes a generous provision for PC sums. Does the total sum include demolition, clearing of the site as well as the foundations? I will end up referring to your sheet in the future for when I do detailed costings on mine (as soon as the damn planning gets approved, 3 weeks over the date and counting 😠)

The one rule I'm aware of is that no CGT applies if its been your residence for 2 years. If you can somehow prove that you lived on site (caravan or mobile home) while the house was being built - then you can sell and bank the gains with no taxes (I think?)

Yes, multi split air con! Thank you - that’s pretty much what I had in mind but didn’t know what to search for. A quick Google tells me that between 5 and 9 units are possible with a single external heat pump. That is probably what we’re after. I would ideally like to get the ceiling or wall cassettes so that it’s a bit more discrete versus wall mounted units, and ideally done at the build stage rather than retrofit. Would the ducting for this be standalone or something that can be shared with an MVHR system?

I’ve posted on the topic of active cooling before but the responses were quite limited, and only about running your ASHP in reverse. I understand this acts more like a trim function rather than a true active air con system. What I’m after is similar to the HVAC systems found in offices - where you enter a room and there’s a thermostat by the door. Set it 20c and the air con kicks in, set it higher and the heating kicks in. Does something like this exist for the residential market, by which I mean at reasonable prices? I’ve heard of MVHR systems where you can utilise the ducting for active cooling - maybe a hybrid system I’m not aware of?

This is new to me - Preliminary Desktop Study for what exactly, out of interest?

U-values: Floor: 0.18 Walls: 0.18 Roof: 0.15 Link to the doc here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/building-regulations-and-approved-documents-index#approved-documents

What online service are you planning to use?

A topic I am very interested in myself and have been trying to get a comparative cost to see what would be cheaper. From speaking to the architect, a few things that came out: Concrete floors - either beam and block or hollowcore will be quite thick and need a further void put in to run services/MVHR ducting. This may be an issue and reduce available head height in the rooms if that's a constraint for you. Concrete floors will also add to the weight of the building naturally and may mean more substantial foundations or SE designs. Will also cost more. Timber floors - in the form of metal web joists are the usual option and offer flexibility in the sense that the ducting can be run through quite easily. One option that's been put forward as a halfway house is a Lewis/metal deck on top of the timber floors with a concrete screed on top of this. Offers the best of both without increasing floor makeup too much. I've not seen that before so would be interested to hear from anyone who has gone for that setup?

London prices always seem to be in their own little world and bear little resemblance to what the online guides or even SPONS will tell you. However, that price does seem extortionately high. 60 sq m at £3k per sq m gives you £180k. I've deliberately chosen that number as most people seem to be self build from scratch at £2k, though I've factored in access restrictions and the higher costs due to it being a basement flat. Even at £4k per sq m - you only get to £240k, which is still lower than your lowest priced quote. I'm sure people dig out basements from scratch and then finish for £4k per sq m, so your refurbishment job should be a lot cheaper really.

The one thing I've figured out in all this process is that no matter which build system I use, market forces will collude against me to make that the most expensive at the time! We were originally considering timber frame a year ago and at the time - timber prices were through the roof and going through 10% MoM upward revisions. We then moved to consider ICF but were told by everyone that concrete prices are too high because of rising energy costs to make the stuff blah blah. Finally came round to bricks and blocks as the prices had been stable for about 2 years - guess what, just started to rise again 😣 Also perfectly correlated with my putting part of the build fund in crypto at the start of the year thinking - surely I can get a better return than the paltry 1% I was getting in a savings account. Turns out, I can't 😤 I'm sure I've posted the plans in one of my earlier posts but its an 8m x 5m building that is split 75/25 between a gym and a storage area/workshop. It is specced in the same materials as the main building now but the quotes have assumed a lot of unnecessary things like UFH, expensive glazing and A2A heat pumps. Easy way for me to drop 10% off the build budget and maybe build a log cabin structure instead - which should come in at less than £20k with a few bells and whistles.