zoothorn

ok. But if I want all 3 bedrooms cold. So I have to go around turning them all off then. And I also want my kitchen, bathroom, sittingroom cold too. Ok. So I turn those off too. And all back on am. That's fine. But far easier do this very setting, all in one go, by selecting that you don't want any rads on overnight! (& which is totally logical). I'm now starting to go barking mad. Is it a full moon or something? We're all going potty I think.

@ProDave I said I'd certainly use -Rick's- list of points to ask the engineer on Monday. I'm actually not asking you. I'm not asking anyone. I've stated from the start I didn't expect the HP to heat here. I just got it for the cylinder. I then said how cold the cottage is. But I was -not- implying the HP was to blame, no. I was simply blaming the structure. My choice to buy it. A cheap cottage, that will have it's caveats (tho 20sqM of knotweed, vile hateful folks all around me, cold ingress in, & the damp -vicinity/ not my house- atmosphere I physically had to adjust to for 2 months of serious chest ache.. are collectively a bit much more than I bargained for). But at this juncture, it was assumed you see I think, that I WAS blaming the HP. And the suggestions & info & explanations came flooding in. I wasn't at all. I moaned about it's breaking down so often, the complexity of it, & the noise issue battle with Vaillant.. which like a boss, I won. I tried repeatedly to remind folks that I didn't expect the HP to warm this house. That I think it can't. That the calculations folks concur that it won't. But this opinion was rejected outright, by everyone, who for some reason (which I can't still understand) say opposingly that the HP -can- & should heat it. (Eh? No, it can't & this is a pro's opinion, not mine per se). And this is how it works & this is how you can make it work you all kindly state (by spending £700 a month? I'm still unclear about this figure's relevance). All very kindly & patiently.. but the opinion by now, was lost. Cast aside. This is why I am admant it can't work here. Not me just being obdurate, but because this is what was said to likely happen by pros who dod their sums about this cold storage structure I call home, & this is what I find, too. I'll absolutely try my best on Monday, but rads on overnight.. just ain't happening! Ok?

Ok but when you say run it 24/7, like someone else pointed to with the word 'ENABLED' I seem to recall.. does this literally mean 24/7-? I have a suspicion, that it doesn't mean it literally. I'm not having any rads on overnight- that is a definite. So if this doesn't fit your suggestion, then I just can't accept this "24/7" settings way. I have no comprehension why anyone wants rads on overnight. Perplexing & absurd, to me. Maybe I just grew up in a cold house, compared to you guys. We never had rads on overnight. They came alive at 7am, to mean a warm room at 8am. That's just basic stuff. You just can't veer away from such a fundamental morning heating setting, in whichever syatem you have, gas CH, a HP whatever, to me anyway. Unless you have stacks of money to burn unnecessarily, &/or like hot bedrooms at night. I very much do not like this.

Eh? I'm even more loster. I thought this £700 figure, was what you expected me to be paying each month. Youe sentence here above.. I honestly cannot understand one word of. Each word isn't joined to the next in my brain. I'm that far from understanding all this stuff. Tbh honest chaps I really can't cope. I haven't a clue what is being said now. It's a shame as I can see how much effort you guys are expending on my behalf. I just feel panicked now reading yet another reply I can't make head nor tail of sense out of. That I can't possibly formulate a reply to. It's starting to seem like I'm reading a foreign language. I have to massively simplify. Strip everything right back. Forget this £700 mystery figure. Cop whatnots. U calculations. TRV's/ dual thermostats. I just need to ask the man a few basic Q's. Get him to set it. I can't do anymore than that. Thanks, Zoot

A separate question. When my new HP installer was here, asking how I wanted it set up ("what do you want for your seback temp at?" he asked, & I replied "my what?")... he said the following. Pointing at the big fan unit box thing outside, he said "you could run that at 45, maybe even 40 for maximum efficiency due to the settings you want" (my lowly settings of 16*C required temp I set the thermostat to). Question. What was he referring to, specifically, when he said I could run that at 45, maybe even 40? The hot water twmperature? The rads twmperature? Are these the -same- anyway? I mean you have hot water in the rads. So there must be a temp at which you can choose, for the water within them, to be running at. But I see no obvious place to set this rad water temp. Surely their temperature, is fundamental, to how warm the rooms get. Is this the same as the HW temp I wonder ( was he even rferring to 45 or 40 degrees even? I've no idea). I mean I can see where to change the HW temp. That's straightforward (& fwiw I set mine to 46*C). But doing this HW setting of the temperature to 46*C.. am I concurrently also & kinda unwittingly, setting the hot water that runs around the rads temperature, to 46*C too-? What is this he was pointing to, to set it? What could he have been referring to? I mean he must have been pointing to/ indicating towards, some specific aspect within the outside fan unit box. Anyone hazard a guess? Thanks, Zoot

@sharpener thanks for your post today. It'll take me a week to go through it though. Ive read it twice & can only understand the bare minimum. Alot of the trouble is I just find it too complicated to understand. TRV's added on, & I'm -really- up against it. Two thermostats. And I need two brains. I can't possibly understand the Cop stuff. --- As for the £700 a month thing, I mean I'm absolutely bewildered. If I had all of my 5 cold rooms, built to the same standard as my 2 warmish new-build ones, my heating bill wouldn't be affected. It'd still be £70 pcm. Conceivably likely a bit less. So of that was the case here, I'd have my 7 new-build rooms, at reasonable warmth, with the rads on during the day doing the on-off dipping thing, none on overnight as I prefer.. for £70 pcm. So where on earth is this ten times a much figure coming from as some form of reference figure-?? I'm so lost & getting loster too. Zoot

@Big Jimbo so how is it that I was spending £70 pcm, & had the rads on in the continual setting you all now want me to set the new one like? I'm not lying, that was my bill. And I had the HP set to continual, albeit not the 23*C you can afford, set to 18*C. I certainly didn't have the rads on overnight, no, I think that idea is ridiculous. Why is it that no-one agrees with the calculations people, who said "no way our HP can run your cottage"? I just don't get it. They were right. I knew it couldn't. I never intended it to work here. In the 2 newbuild rooms? YES it can work there. But not in the old 3 main rooms. There is such a clear example, right under my nose, of what rooms can be heated by it & what type just can't. New build rooms yes: I can see the evidence 6m away from where I stand. Old stone room & crap 80's extension rooms no: he question is why. And the answer is so damn obvious too, right here, evidence right now, at my property. Warm room. And a cold room. The difference is the answer. And the only difference... is insulation. That is the reason one room is warm, one is cold. I mean this is so damn obvious! I can't honestly believe why anyone could disagree! It's like when Blair stated 'education education education'. The difference between th3 rooms, & therefore the 2+2=4 answer IS IS IS 'insulation insulation insulation!!'

I don't understand Nick apologies. How could such a screwfix thermostat trip the system on & off-?

Absolutely not. I had no idea such a figure would be relevant to me here, having been paying £70. Again: the prior HP was being run, to all intents & purposes, continually (bar night- I'll never entertain the idea of rads on overnight never in my life have I lived in a property with overnight rads on, it's sheer lunacy). I was paying £70 then. So why anyone would ask 'would you be prepared to spend 2.5x as much per month?' Tbh I'm fairly baffled by. I mean of course I wouldn't. Thanks, Zoot

Thing is chaps, with all respect (& I will talk to the engineer Monday with all that's discussed) once the U readings were done -if that's the calculation/ I think you know what I mean anyway- as I said the Co wanted to pull out. No way they wanted to put a HP in the cottage. To reitterate, I had to beg them to relent & agree, but only because I was effectively getting a new cylinder out of it. I had no intention of CH useage. They did relent, but stipulating basically "but it won't work, in your house there, the calculations show". So all I'm doing here, is reitterating what this set of people (whoever did the U calculations I mean- I can't recall who but it wasn't the installer, nor was it the innitial door to door salesman from the council super eager to put a HP in my property) what the calculations people, said about the maych of a 9kW HP + my property. That it won't work. All I'm doing, is showing you, that they were right. I'm not arguing for argument's sake, nor being obdurate & not running the HP for long stretches over months: this -was the setting- of the prior (noisy, yes) HP. The fact that the cottage remained freezing cold, only tallied with what the calculations people said. That it tallied too, with what I suspected, I think shows a bit of intuition from myslef tbh. I don't think you're giving me due credit here. And you're effectively arguing with the calculations people, rather than me per se, ghat a 9kW HP can work here. It can't. And I'll say it till the cows come home too. We'll set the HP on Monday, to work as it did before. In longer continual day periods. Like the last one was set to. Why anyone thinks this time I'll have some warmth (in the 3 main cold rooms that I mostly use), tbh I find rather bizarre. Anyway, much appreciate the help. I'll do my best on Monday, & I'm better placed to ask the chap questions, than I was before. One being whether -I- can power it down, rewire the controller box via a new 30m cable from the interface unit box, through a wall, & down say to the kitchen (which we can agree on: this cold room I frquent the most being a far more convenient place to have it to monitor it/ fiddle about with it's settings etc)... I'll certainly ask. Another logical question, being why was it placed next to the cylinder; if perhaps convenience to the installer's workload, might be the obvious answer. Thanks Zoot

You can't escape the Zootmaze.

But Rick.. the difference here between your house & mine (& it's massive/ it's so absolutely fundamental/ the crux of all this issue here).. .. is you (& all those members you collectively listed earlier in the post) have decent insulation. It goes without saying, that with your knowledge, this priority structural factor, you WILL have up to par. Likely beyond-par up to a very decent standard. I do not have insulation. Practically.. none. This is the cause of the cold. This is why so much cold enters. This is why a HP which typically produces medium-warm rads, cannot hold a candle to making any inroads, here. The only way I can affect the insulative factor of my kitchen & bathroom (in their terrible construction 80's extension I sit here with nose & feet freezing cold as I type this, with it 14*C & mild outside..) is to knock it down. Rebuild it. Not by running each of these two room's small rad on for countless & pointless wasting hours. I cannot afford to rebuilt this extension. If I could, my main sittingroom is still in need of effectively the same treatment. I can't knock that down. I can affect a tiny perimeter cold ingress, but that's merely a sticking plaster solution. it's just a cold house, it will always be so. Unless 2 jet engines are introduced. Still I'd pee & huff my breath one side, even with the afterburner singing my arse the other. thanks, Zoot

Please forgive me Rick, I just can't understand a word of this. It would take me a week of brainache, tk puck through just this one post, reading it 150x to maybe glean 1/4 of understanding from it. Look, all I can do, is ask the engineer to set the rads to go on during the day. Not overnight, sorry but I cannot entertain this idea as anything but nonsensical, if I catagoricallly & absolutely do not ever want to have any radiator on during the night time in my house. I've got your set of listed things to ask him. Apparently there's a 'Setback temp' (which I don't quite understand why hasn't been mentioned as it seems pretty fundamental to the rads switching on situation) that I guess in principle, I could have set to say 10*Cmax if that's what someone mentioned the 'see your breath' cutoff temp is. But no more than that. I'll also ask if the 'controller- thermostat' can be moved.. but the logistics of doing so, with it being wired (not wireless) would be very costly & needing a cable of maybe 30m to be fed through an attic, down through a ceiling.. 3 hours work min costing me £100's, which I can't afford tbh. I could conceivably do it, if I knew how to remove the cable, replace with 30m of new stuff, but then my warranty will likely be compromised wouldn't it. But then even if I did run it downstairs, to one of the 3 freezing cold rooms, it would be running overtime, & totally out of kilter, just being left to trip the rads on, pretty much all day long. The average day room temp in these 3 rooms, I'd hazard a guess is about 14*C, they can never ever get any higher than that, that's even with their room rad or rads producing heat, because (& pretty blindingly simply & also as blindingly obviously) so much cold is coming up from uninsulated cold floor & in through uninsulated cold walls. I honestly think we're at an impasse here, whereby I say the cause of the cold is fundamentally due to the uninsulated nature of the rooms, & you say the cause is the heating system isn't introducing enough heat. I'm absolutely adamant, & you guys are. But look, I live here, the doctor analogy is applicable/ you know your own body best analogy. I will do my best with the engineer though. I'll record his voice saying the answer to each thing you suggested to ask. Thanks, Zoot Thanks, Zoot

So here Rick, you -are- unless I'm mistaken, saying all my rads, should be set to 'on', overnight. In my life I've never known any house, any heating system, anywhere, in any country Ive been to including cold NZ, to have the rads on overnight. I cannot possibly believe this is what you or anyone is suggesting. I just can't sorry. Ive never heard anything suggested being so preposterous. All 12 rads, to be on, when I'm alone for 9 hours in one room.. when not only do I not even want heat (because I'm under a duvet), but also when I open a window to sleep, needing a bit of cold air/ how I prefer.. is such daftness I can't believe this is being suggested. How can I possibly run my house like this? I can't sorry, this is sheer madness to me. The wastage, the expenditure, just no way. This may be how you like your bedroom overnight, maybe in a family of 4, with all your rads on, but never in my life have I ever heard of it before, by anyone, anywhere. You yourself agreed with the storage heater ridiculousness, of them belting out heat at 3:45am. You agreed. No-one could ----possibly, possibly---- disagree either. It's like having a car sat in the driveway idle, but left on & somehow using up MORE fuel, than you do when actually driving it. "Yes that's logical, keep it on running idle in the drive overnight, that's what they do". You'd commit that person to a mental asylum.

No, none have. The installer asked this question too. I have no idea why this question would be asked, by you, or by him, if the room's rads are ultimately defined by the 'controller thermostat small box'.. therefore cannot for the life of me comprehend why any discussion of extra thermostats/ TRV's, makes any logical sense. Their mention merely adds further confusion for me.

Hi Nick, alas I'm not blessed with family to help, 86/90 yr old frail parents, brother 200m away not close-brothers either. I don't even know anyone in wales to ask to tea, let alone ask to come & decipher some engineer's spiel! I can spin the wheel on the controller though, know how to zip around it's menu (having to on phone to Vaillant, yet again, due to some minor fault). I'm even adept at it. But look I don't know what is being meant, by "set the heating to always on". I must try & establish what, exactly, is being asked here. Everyone seems to all know what is meant; but Ive repeatedly said that I do not, & no-one answers. Thanks, Zoot

Hi ProDave, honestly thanks for trying to explain it, but if I can't understand "If you still have an account balance of £300 at near the end of winter then you are paying more than you need to".. I just can't do this. I've tried & tried for so long so many times with this stupid electric billing system. But I can never get it. Not even with childlike analogies. It just doesn't compute. If my prior HP was (& afaict this is what you mean by 'always on' but I don't know) set to go on-off all day long, then afaict it was, in all normalcy, 'always on'. That is if you can't be suggesting in a 3-bed cottage just me living here, that I have all my 12 rads on continuously overnight: I just can't bring myself to believe that is what you are suggesting as it makes no logical sense. So if my prior system was always on, for weeks on end set like so, during the winter & despite what my expense on electricity.. then the test is done, surely. The 'put your HP set to always on' test (which you're asking me to set the new HO to) has been done. It failed. The cottage remained freezing. Bar two newbuild rooms that is (sod's law being the least used rooms). I'm in a perpetual cycle of non-understanding here. And the number of subjects I cannot understand, is increacing, with now mention if electric bills. I'll have to bail out, tbh, & with huge respect to all here, simply because I can't cope. I'm getting increacingly confused, leading to increasing kinda creeping mild stress. Thanks, Zoot

@-rick- I can certainly give him your wording here, to the engineer, on Monday.. despite not understand some of what you're asking me to ask him For eg. Always on?? Why would I want the heating always on?? (Why would anyone want their heating always on??) I don't want to wake up sweating, besides, you & I were on the same page grumbling about Storage heaters being on at 3:53 am when you absolutely least want them to. So the very first thing, you're asking me to ask him here, I don't understand whatsoever as to why you'd want me to request this. From then on, I'm further confused. But I can show him your reply, record his answer on my iPad's audio, & write down what he said. But then type it on here, for it to be "translated", by you guys. I mean I'm exhausted enough. But if that's the only way. TRV's which iirc are independent thermostats.. plus separate thermostats.. & my head explodes. I cannot understand an iota of this principle. Apologies. How to be ready: 1. Get the engineer on Monday to show you how to: a. turn heating to - "always on" - "always off" - "timer" b. adjust the set temperature c. adjust the timer 2. Deal with the bedroom external walls as discussed. 3. If needed, arrange for the thermostat/heatpump controller to be moved to a cold part of the house 4. Possibly, get TRVs installed on the radiators in the warm part of the house (this is something that couldbe done if needed at a later date).

@S2D2 Your £700 figure has polaxed me. I've no comprehension why you'd pick such a figure (unless you live in a castle?!). I know I pay £70 odd, each month. Now this is likely not an actual figure of useage in winter, because it's compromise/ average/ I forget the word, figure. When I call up Octopus to ask why my 'balance is £300 in credit' & what this means, I ask them to please speak very slowly, to explain, to please use simple analogies, to help me understand, what on god's name this figure means. Just this. They do so, but I cannot understand a word they say; I have to politely say thanks but I still haven't a clue what this figure even is at the end of the call. It's economics. My brain doesn't compute economics. So much so, that the very fundamental lesson 1/ page 1 example of 'supply & demand'... is 100% counterintuitive, to my brain. I do not understand economics. It seems you need to have a basic grasp of it, in order to pick the bones out of these super-complicated (to me) electricity bills. So I don't. I set up a direct debit, & £70 is taken each month. I often put in a meter reading, but still, it takes £70 each month (IE it seems my putting in meter reading, makes zero effect, on what is taken each month.. so I never know why on god's earth am I even being asked, to put in meter numbers at all?? A rhetorical question). I just pay £70. And enough already. Whether that is a correct figure, or wildly incorrect, I have no clue whatsoever. I dare not ask, or rather there's zero point me asking an Octopus person, because I won't understand a word of their reply. Thanks Zoot

Hi ProDave, as Ive said I just kinda left both systems for the installer to set, last thing. On Monday, I can certainly ask the engineer (come to fix HW issue) to set it a certain way. But I have no idea what to ask. When you say 'leave it on 24/7' I'm not quite understanding what you mean: you see I know that my system is working 24/7, what I mean is it's connected up to receive power, but obviously doesn't produce rad heat overnight. But it's still 'on' nevertheless. So this word "on" is hugely ambiguous. Are you suggesting I leave all the rads to be warm for 24/7 ? Surely not as I wouldn't be able to sleep, it seems massively wasteful, environmentally ridiculous, when just 1 person living here. So you might be suggesting some kind of setting -between- these two situations. If so, isn't that what I had it set ti before with my prior system with the rads dipping on-off all day?? I've tried that. The try failed. The cottage remained freezing. I'm also not understanding the thermostat suggestion thing. The suggestion to place it somewhere other than where the installer put it. Why, would the installer put it anywhere other than a sensible place? How can I override his decision, & ask him to place it some other room, when I can't even understand the system? Afaik, the thermostat needs to be close to the cylinder. Close to the other interface box too, which itself has to be close to the cylinder. Cylinders are typucally found in spae bedroom cupboards. I know this to be true, as Ive seen them with my own eyes, in almost all the houses Ive ever set foot in. An orange foam covered tank, warm, usually in a tiny cupboard often called 'airing cubboard' residing within an upstairs bedroom. Usually the smallest, least used bedroom. When I call up saying 'another fault' the Vaillant fix team person asks me to look at the screen on the interface, then go to the controller (I think this smallest box is also referred to as the thermostat). So I have to dart between them. I can't do that, if the thermostat, has been rewired (a huge length of cable running 15m away from where it is) to be in one of my cold rooms downstairs. Thanks Zoot

@SteamyTea apologies I accept you -are- morally superior, in that you have vastly more building knowledge than I. I just don't care for snapping posts that seem to wish for likes, more than offer help. I'll take it on the chin tho, from yourself. Thanks, Zoot

Sorry I don't understand a word of this post (apart from credit to Rick bit). £700??? I pay £70. Selling the house? This is my first house, bought for a steal, which Ive renovated -with fantastic help- that fits me like a glove. A fluke gem which I'll never find another place like it. Besides, 9-years being bullied by sometimes viscous hatred by of a pack of locals, living all around me, which Ive mostly quelled with police help.. I refuse to be defeated, which IS to sell up; the very goal of the coward haters. Making me MORE intent, to stay. Despite the cold, & dreadful damp climate. I'll be watching a YouTube channel as to whether to dig out the floor: a similar sized stone cottage, with a HP, new owners with a similar skillset as me. That will give me the best guage of whether it is a good idea, or not. Despite the owner not being anywhere near as experienced as those on here. Yiu don't need experience, to tell if something is warm. To twll why something is. To determine why something isn't warm, too. It's intuitive. It's a case of living in the area, hearing of others with similar stone properties they find impossible to heat. The first 2 months here, I had a physical pain in my lungs, I knew 1000% was due to the climate. The heavy, damp, welsh hills/ valleys something or other local oddness. It wasn't something I made up, because it was a pronounced physical pain/ ache, which was the nearest Ive come to selling up. This pain abated when I visited few days in England, & returned when I arrived back in the local vicinity. It was extremely strange. Never had any lung probs, never known anything like it, anywhere in the world that Ive been to, including NZ/ Malaysia/ Thailand humid countries etc. This huge delbilitating chest ache did fully abate in time. In 2 months as I said. Now, I don't need a doctor to tell me this wasn't likely true, or that this area doesn't have some climate-related factor that was the cause of it. I just knew, 1000%, it to be true. It was true. You guys...... would dispute it till the cows come home. In fact, you did exactly this. Not you specifically s2d2. Sometimes, an area does just proove to be ----especially cold---- &/ or ----especially damp/ humid/ whatever that aspect is----- without some humidity reading froma gadget, dismissing it as nonsense. The same with warming this cottage. You can't. I swear to god that to be true.. that you just can't. Zoot

Again, blaming me for the operation of the HP, rather than accepting some houses... are just impossibly cold. I said before Rick, I ran the old HP at a continuous setting way. I remember it going on & off, the rads dipping on & off, all day. Was this situation cause for my bathroom, kitchen, main room to notice an iota of warmth? No. Never. Not even for 5 minutes, in these 3 main useage rooms, in 5 years of running that HP, the way you keep saying it's best to run it. Why was it set like this? I've no idea: I presume the installer did so innitially. I never changed it. Freezing damn cold. YOUR chosen way of operation. The ONLY time Ive felt a bit of warmth, is with the new HP running at a non-optimal way. Why was it set like so (did I choose this? No). Because the recent installer set it the new HP to run like so. I never changed it to this setting. If it's running at an alarmingly high cost way, currently, then I will have to change it. Beacause I cannot afford to run it so. But it is NOT my choice, the way both systems, were set. They are too complicated for me to set them. I say as much at the time of install, & ask the guy to do what he thinks best. [[I never expected to feel any warmth either. I knew a HP is totally incorrect for here. Hence I only got it for the cylinder. I've been proven entirely correct that at whatever setting, optimally or not, a 9kW HP hasn't a hope in HELL of providing heat, in this cottage. Proven correct. I mean it's like knowing your own body isn't it.. YOU are the one who best knows it, NOT NOT NOT neccessarily, the doctor with the pHD!!]] Thanks, Zoot

Sorry but this is sanctamonius ST. My bathroom is tiny. It could only accommodate a small chrome towel rail. It has zero insulation, bar some loft fluff/ doubling up this too, made no noticeable difference. I've run the old HP at a continuous setting, with medium warm rads. And I've run this new HP at 2x blocks of heating periods, with higher rads. The bathroom was freezing cold before, most often seeing your breath & never one iota of warmth felt. The bathroom is also similarly freezing cold, wit( the new HP. This prooves, your/ anyone else's theory that "He's not running the HP correct, if he did so, the bathroom would have some warmth felt" absolute BS. Utter twaddle. The bathroom, is freezing cold, because SO much cold is winning against little heat. It is that simple. It is that blindingly obvious. Whether you have knowledge, & that I don't have as much as you, or not. It is BLINDINGLY that obvious, why it's freezing. THE STRUCTURE --NOT-- FKN ME OK!! If a bathroom is built like mine is, with zero insulation under the floor, zero insulation in the walls, built onto one old original freezing cold thick stone wall, north-facing, & doesn't have the wall area for anything bigger than a fancy towel rail.. it WILL be freezing cold. It hasn't a hope of being warm. It has never, ever, once ever been warm. Not even with a fan heater on almost continuously. I cannot stand this ganging up. With others all chiming in with the likes. It's mild bullying. And no help whatsoever either. You can't offer help?? then why post at all-? to glean a few likes to massage an ego is that the reason? Enough. Zoot

@-rick- I appreciate what you say here. And most kind to think from my pov as much as you are doing. But I do find some opposing sort of opinion, if I may: the only time Ive ever said to myself 'ooh I can actually feel a bit of warmth! I can barely believe it! Warmth in my cottage?!' is since this new Monobloc's been in for the 3 weeks. Doing it's 2-hour block of rads on periods. That's the only time, in the last 5 years Ive actually noticed some warmth from them, enough to get a modicum of comfort. So to say to me, no I have this present setting wrong, that I have to turn the system output down & run it longer instead (which is I believe how I/ or rather someone else set the prior Split HP system to run: it was on more continuously, but the rads weren't nearly as hot) & as a consequence, I'll not feel my bit of warmth, Is.. well, it's just counterintuitive, it's taking my bit of warmth, away from me. I can't see how I could rationally make that decision. When I wake up, last 3 weeks, I'm not stepping from duvet into a freezing cold room. It's not say over 16*C, no, but I'm not noticing cold immediately as I'm so used to here for 10 years. That's a huge change. Even for just a block of 2 hours.. it's like a mini luxury for me. Honestly Rick as Ive said, I've only used the HP as a HW source. It's just not meant to reside in such a dwelling. And I feel grateful for the free cylinder. But iteasy to see they're designed for Scandi timber homes, having big insulation as priority in floors/ walls/ ceilings. I can't expect it to work here in a stone cottage sat upon cold clay with these slate & cold mud walls, honestly, I just can't. And I dont blame it for not working here as it's designed to at all. But I do need it to give me HW. Because it's impossibly cold in my tiny bathroom for 6 if not 8 months of the year to have a shower (even with it's towel-rail HP rad on). So I -have- to have baths. It's this bathroom, & adjacent kitchen, which are the most uncomfortably cold rooms. They pip the main old big room! It's barking mad the way this house is cold. Sometimes it's noticeably mild outside in the air, & when I nip to the bathroom, I can see my breath. It was 16*C on my iPad in my area outside in autumn I recall, & felt like it too, mild, then I go to pee.. & I can see my breath. THAT's what it is often like here. it's bonkers cold. Irrationally cold. Completely, unusually, cold. So imagine the bathroom when it's 0*C outside!! No HP can be expected to input heat into such a bathroom. Like the cloying wet atmosphere, the cold is & I'm not even exaggerating, like an huge enemy entity. Thanks, Zoot