JamesPa

Not any more they don't if you want them to be efficient You mean unlike condensing boilers that are set up so they rarely if ever condense, which so far as I can tell is common practice. My plumber, when he visited to do the last annual service before it was superseded by and ASHP, had the cheek to reset the flow temp to 75C (without telling me) even though I had deliberately turned it down to 50C. We have a long way to go it seems in terms of CPD or am I missing something?

Having a heat pump is a disadvantage. Primarily because of cost, secondly, finding someone who can do it properly, and, to a much lesser degree, reliance on the grid being available, which for most is a non issue, but a small issue for me. Given, as per my ramblings elsewhere, i end up with a bigger generator, that problem goes away. The eco4 scheme, assuming i qualified, would fund the HP, solar and insulationl at no cost to me at all. Im sure you can appreciate, that fundamentally changes things. OK. If I understand you correctly you may fit a heat pump if (because?) its paid for by the taxpayer, even though you believe it may cause you hassle and don't believe there will be any comfort or running cost benefits and also mention above several other features that you consider are disadvantages. That, particularly given the strength with which you express above your views on the disadvantages, is probably why I'm confused. Furthermore I don't really know how to respond to this position (other than to pity any contractor who gets involved) so I wont comment further on this particular matter.

Yeah but a car is very high loss, small and has thermal characteristics known to the designer of the heating. Houses are none of these, so the problem is much more difficult. I agree but...I spoke to the clearly knowledgeable guy from Hive at the most recent installer show. They had a go, but gave up, not because its impossible but because the interfaces are all different and not guaranteed to stay constant, so it wasn't commercially viable for them. Thats not difficult to understand. We need an EU regulation to force an open interface to the basic parameters. I believe there is talk of same, but no date or certainty it will happen. I agree, and not. An uneducated population is a gift to a poor installer, a scammer, a would be despot, and any of the other disgusting slime that humanity throws up. I can see no reason why people need to understand the physics of how their heating systems work, but even the most basic understanding of a few key concepts would surely be beneficial. For WC it amounts to, when its cold outside radiators will feel warm, when its warm outside they will feel cooler, there is some clever technology that makes that happen and the result is a more stable house temperature and lower running costs.

I believe Havenwise offers exactly that for £50 per year (other heat pump optimisation services are available). Even without Havenwise, all you have to do on my heat pump to adjust the WC is turn a (digital) dial up if the house is too cold, or down if its too warm. Not exactly rocket science! Changing the set room temp actually shifts the WC curve behind the scenes, the user doesn't need to know that if they don't want to so once again, hardly a difficult concept!

Not all sadly, far too many just throw in plastic push fit elbows.

Well perhaps your posts have succeeded in confusing me. So far as I can tell from what you have said above you see no advantage in having a heat pump, only disadvantage. Yet you have/are investigating getting one? I can only apologise for my confusion.

They dont need a physics degree to turn a single temperature dial up or down, which is the control on mine. Not that it needs changing often, just leave it alone and it does its thing. I don't have or need batteries, the business case doesn't stack up for me and there is no environmental benefit so far as I can tell. There would be a convenience benefit so, when prices come down a bit I may, but not yet. Which is fine, nobody here is trying to sell you a heating system. Like most things, including boilers, they have some good points and some not so good points. You obviously recognise the not so good points, all I (and others) are doing is setting out some of the good points so the discussion is better informed. Sometimes we dont know what we dont know!. Somehow, however, I get the feeling that you don't want to hear anything good about heat pumps, only the bad. That's also fine, you are entitled to block out things you don't want to hear. However blocking things out doesn't change reality. What I know is that mine is more comfortable, much more comfortable. I also know why, and also why the same is highly likely to apply to many houses and that other people report similar. I also know that I went as far as I could to make my previous system as comfortable as possible.

I actually went down the sequential route as part of the discovery phase for my ASHP. I first reduced my boiler temp to the lowest it would go (50C), then started operating 24x7. That was as far as I could take it without changing radiators, in fact I needed to up the FT to 55 in the depth of winter. I also limited my boiler output to the minimum possible (8.5kW in my case). This arrangement was indeed more comfortable, and used less gas (it wasn't cheaper because prices went up at the same time, but it used less gas). Upsizing radiators, swapping to an ASHP (obviously with WC) and thus getting max FT down to 45, and FT most of the time to 35 or less, together with removing all but one TRV head made the big difference in comfort though. One day I will tot up how much I have spent on wholly unnecessary heating control equipment over the years (yes I too was suckered into trying 'smart' TRVs at one point - what a waste of time and money!).

I don't think you wont have to wait long. My 4 year old Kia e-Niro reliably does >240miles in the worst of winter, 300 in summer. That's not much less than you need and thats a car from 4 years ago.

... and the heating industry is content not to inform them, because it is so easy to whack in a 28kW boiler without thinking and let the controls 'sort it out'. This is of course at considerable cost to the customer both in comfort and expense, and with the added benefit to the industry that they get to sell lots of unnecessary controls! We are stunningly backward in the UK. Some continental european countries mandated weather compensation decades ago. I presume our heating industry lobbied against and unfortunately our Government wouldn't have had the technical knowledge to overrule them. I confess that, despite having a degree in physics, I was ignorant of this myself until I started researching heat pumps (and thus heating systems in general) about 3 years ago. Its only slowly dawned on me how misled we have been by the industry in this country and how backward it is. For the avoidance of doubt Im not saying we are unique, but we could be a lot better.

I know that and acknowledge it in my post - I quote: 'Low temperature heating (the conversion to which makes up a major part of the differential cost) is just so much better, but how many people who haven't experienced it know that?.' However the cost comparison that you do is with your typical 'shove in a 28kW boiler, whack the flow temp up to 75, ignoring the fact that it wont condense, and let it cycle like mad on the TRVs and Thermostats, with the consequent temperature gradients across rooms and temperature swings with time' crap that our heating industry has been installing, its not the well put together low temperature system you speak of above. The latter needs the same care, and mostly the same components, as an ASHP system. So yes if you want a crap heating system that costs more to run than it should go for the cheapest to install, which is undoubtedly to shove in a 28kW boiler, whack it up to 75C, and let the TRVs 'sort it out'. If you want a system that keeps you comfortable then go for something much better, which will cost about the same to install whether the heat source is ASHP or gas and, if you get it right, will be a bit cheaper to run in the latter case (a lot cheaper if you have batteries and/or solar PV) and much greener. Obviously there are many that can only afford the capital for the first of these, but equally there are many who would happily pay for better if (a) they knew the option existed and (b) our heating industry were capable of delivering it at scale, which at present I doubt it is.

As a recent ASHP owner I would probably agree (although I do save a significant amount of money with mine) However I would also say that, if you want a much better heating experience with a house the whole of which is comfortable 24*7 for about the same or possibly less running cost then do bother. (Obviously also if you want to reduce the carbon footprint of your heating by a factor of 3 they do bother) Low temperature heating (the conversion to which makes up a major part of the differential cost) is just so much better, but how many people who haven't experienced it know that?. Just be sure to do your research so you avoid the cowboys, as you must for absolutely anything which involves any of the building trades which, lets face it, are in parts about as dodgy as it gets.

It hasn't. However in the thread concerned the complainant was blaming his ASHP (because thats what people do) for problems clearly caused by a poorly insulated circulation loop running continuously. I suppose with a boiler the problems wouldn't be so easily noticed, because the boiler would just carry on chucking heat into the loop.

Transmission losses and power station efficiency etc are all accounted for on the published figures for carbon intensity of fuels, which are updated annually. The carbon footprint from UK domestic electricity per kWh is about 10% less than that of domestic gas, furthermore it's falling as we move to renewables. That means that a heat pump with a cop of 3 causes less than one third the carbon emissions (actually it's a bit better still than that because most has boilers are set up by the heating industry in a way that makes them less than 100% efficient). This stuff is well established and the carbon case for heat pumps irrefutable.

Fair enough if you make it that sophisticated. Is that what your average plumber does or do they just have it running continuously? There is a running 'ashp' thread elsewhere in which it's obvious that the main problem is in fact a circulating loop (IE nothing at all to do with the ashp).