What do you think of this window section? Worth worrying about? 😬

[fatgus]

This is a cross section of our top (for several reasons) window contender… would you be worried that the highlighted bit doesn’t have a designed-in slope? It’s been suggested, by another supplier, that the flat rebate means that rain that gets past the seal (arrowed) would potentially sit on that flat area without draining, causing rot in the long term… that makes sense, but is it a real cause for concern?

 

I’ve compared with a few other manufacturers’ cross sections and most seem to be like this, with just a couple that have a slight fall on the rebate below the glazing unit….

 

Any thoughts gratefully received… I thought our window choice was almost made (just awaiting one more quote) but this question makes me nervous!

 

I shall now return to my much needed evening gin. Thank you all 

 

 

[Iceverge]

Those frames don't look hectic. 

 

What's the Uf value? 

[fatgus]

31 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Those frames don't look hectic. 

 

What's the Uf value? 

Not sure, but the average Uw over 95sq.m is 0.88. …

[fatgus]

Sorry @Iceverge… not sure what you mean by “don’t look hectic”?

It seems as though the rebate on the fixed windows has a fall…

 

 

 

[BotusBuild]

My take on this. All the mullions have slope, whether fixed or opening windows which is good.

The bit you are questioning is glazing fixed into the frame. In essence, once fitted with the seals all in place correctly, the glazing should not move relative to the frame as designed. The possibility of rain getting into that area between the bottom of the glazing and the frame should be zero as long as they are manufactured correctly which we should assume they will be.

You're going to be checking all the seals in these units when they arrive,  like I did, aren't you (Hint!). Check for any where you suspect they have put the join between the two ends of a seal anywhere else except the top of the frame. We had 5! glazing units removed after fitting to have the seals replaced and fitted correctly. 

[fatgus]

16 minutes ago, BotusBuild said:

My take on this. All the mullions have slope, whether fixed or opening windows which is good.

The bit you are questioning is glazing fixed into the frame. In essence, once fitted with the seals all in place correctly, the glazing should not move relative to the frame as designed. The possibility of rain getting into that area between the bottom of the glazing and the frame should be zero as long as they are manufactured correctly which we should assume they will be.

Thanks @BotusBuild I’ve been through quite a number of drawings and can only find a few (e.g. Nordan & Rationel) where this element is sloped, so I figure it can’t be too much of an issue. Most of our windows are fixed anyway.

 

16 minutes ago, BotusBuild said:

You're going to be checking all the seals in these units when they arrive,  like I did, aren't you (Hint!). Check for any where you suspect they have put the join between the two ends of a seal anywhere else except the top of the frame. We had 5! glazing units removed after fitting to have the seals replaced and fitted correctly. 

Great tip 👍👍 To be frank, not something I’d considered… definitely added to the check list 😁
 

 

 

[fatgus]

Thinking about this a little more, I imagine that provided the dimension in red below is adequate, any water that defeats the seal above will drip onto the sloped part anyway… most unlikely to make its way onto the horizontal area. A non-issue, I suspect!

 

[craig]

No, no slope required as that is the area where the glass packers need to be.

 

It is externally glazed though, which means the cladding needs to be removed to get access to the glass if it breaks/fails. This is the case for most outward opening systems, the clips break when removed, so they need to be replaced and service engineers absolutely hate them, as it's it a lot of time (money)/effort to remove all the cladding, place the clips back, and fix the cladding back on. That also means they need to have the right tool to turn the clips to hold the cladding in place (they get broken removing the cladding, easier to snap the lug than turn the clip).

Edited yesterday at 12:21 by craig

[craig]

3 hours ago, fatgus said:

, any water that defeats the seal above will drip onto the sloped part anyway

 

I would say that is the intended design.

[fatgus]

4 hours ago, craig said:

No, no slope required as that is the area where the glass packers need to be.

 

It is externally glazed though, which means the cladding needs to be removed to get access to the glass if it breaks/fails. This is the case for most outward opening systems, the clips break when removed, so they need to be replaced and service engineers absolutely hate them, as it's it a lot of time (money)/effort to remove all the cladding, place the clips back, and fix the cladding back on. That also means they need to have the right tool to turn the clips to hold the cladding in place (they get broken removing the cladding, easier to snap the lug than turn the clip).

 

That's good info... Thanks Craig 👍

 

4 hours ago, craig said:

 

I would say that is the intended design.

 

👍👍

[Iceverge]

17 hours ago, fatgus said:

Sorry @Iceverge… not sure what you mean by “don’t look hectic”?

It seems as though the rebate on the fixed windows has a fall…

 

 

 

 

Apologies for my hiberno slang. 

 

Just glancing at the section of the window I wouldn't be sure it was a top performer in terms of air sealing and thermal conductivity. 

 

I would like to see more seals and insulation. Something like this with 4 seals and thermally broken too.

 

 

 

 

The Uw figure looks fine as a whole but just be cautious of it as large areas of glazing with a low Ug can hide poorer Uf figures. 

 

 

[fatgus]

6 hours ago, Iceverge said:

 

Apologies for my hiberno slang. 
 

😁👍

 

6 hours ago, Iceverge said:

 

Just glancing at the section of the window I wouldn't be sure it was a top performer in terms of air sealing and thermal conductivity. 

 

I would like to see more seals and insulation. Something like this with 4 seals and thermally broken too.

 

The Uw figure looks fine as a whole but just be cautious of it as large areas of glazing with a low Ug can hide poorer Uf figures. 

 

 

It’s not a top performer, but most of our windows are fixed so I think (hope) the openers will be ’good enough’ 🤞 The manufacturer is Westcoast. We really like the appearance of the windows, their pricing is competitive and the installers, very local to us, have been extremely helpful so far. There are still a couple of other options we’re looking at but at the moment these are probably top of the list. It’s quite hard to justify an additional £30k+ for the likes of Internorm, even though they are undoubtedly better windows… it would probably be better spent elsewhere (like the home cinema and games room 😏)

[Iceverge]

I'm glad you've found a good company. That's probably more important than anything. I know I'm banging a PVC drum here but I see they do Veka profiles.

 

I would price Alphaline 90 and Softline 82 and go to see a house with them and alucald both installed after 10 years and compare. 

 

You could see a £30k swing the other direction and a lower maintenance better performing window. 

[fatgus]

2 hours ago, Iceverge said:

I'm glad you've found a good company. That's probably more important than anything. I know I'm banging a PVC drum here but I see they do Veka profiles.

 

I would price Alphaline 90 and Softline 82 and go to see a house with them and alucald both installed after 10 years and compare. 

 

You could see a £30k swing the other direction and a lower maintenance better performing window. 

 

We did consider PVC, but haven't found many systems appeal aesthetically. One candidate was Rehau Artevo. I've tried for a few months to get pricing from different fabricators... still waiting 🫤 Also liked Aluplast Energeto Neo, but Aluplast don't yet have any UK fabricators. I'll take a look at the two you mention 👍

 

Is the main issue with aluclad the colour fading? I guess that's mostly due to UV exposure?