DIY plumbing and heating 2nd fix

[Annker]

I have back to brick Victorian semi-d reno on the go.

Plan for heating is ASHP heating 10x rads and UFH in 2x rooms. 

 

This may be a silly idea but is it feasible to have a Heating & Plumbing contractor install the ASAP, cylinder and all distribution pipework (heating and hot water), leaving me (a carpenter) to install the radiator and bathroom ware?

Am I entirely underestimating the complexity in imaging that a contractor could supply and install an operational system to which I can then attach the 2nd fix items?

 

It seems there are a number of contractors who specialise in heat pump installs so perhaps they would be onboard.

I'm also interest in this sort of arrangement because it may allow me to finish out the three bathrooms in the project as and when required.

 

I suppose there would be a lot of draining down/refilling so you'd would have to agree a number of visits from the contractor, and confirm who is responsibility for what leaks, etc.  

It may be a daft idea so I thought I'd ask for opinions here before going to the market!

[sharpener]

13 hours ago, Annker said:

This may be a silly idea but is it feasible to have a Heating & Plumbing contractor install the ASAP, cylinder and all distribution pipework (heating and hot water), leaving me (a carpenter) to install the radiator and bathroom ware?

 

I would say perfectly feasible. You would of course have to spec the HP with this in mind and also have enough of a thermal load for the contractor to be able to commission the HP in the first place. Main problems I can forsee are more to do with the BUS grant and MCS paperwork than physical installation.

 

The other possibility is to talk to an MCS umbrella company (Aira?) who will spec and commission the system while leaving the actual installation to be done by others (including you).

 

Might be better to ask the mods to move this to the ASHP forum as there is more experience of unusual setups on there.

 

13 hours ago, Annker said:

I suppose there would be a lot of draining down/refilling so you'd would have to agree a number of visits from the contractor, and confirm who is responsibility for what leaks, etc.  

 

I would say get him to fit isolating valves in strategic places, I would go for full bore quality ball valves e.g. Pegler to be sure they will work when required.

[Nickfromwales]

20 hours ago, Annker said:

I have back to brick Victorian semi-d reno on the go.

Plan for heating is ASHP heating 10x rads and UFH in 2x rooms. 

 

This may be a silly idea but is it feasible to have a Heating & Plumbing contractor install the ASAP, cylinder and all distribution pipework (heating and hot water), leaving me (a carpenter) to install the radiator and bathroom ware?

Am I entirely underestimating the complexity in imaging that a contractor could supply and install an operational system to which I can then attach the 2nd fix items?

 

It seems there are a number of contractors who specialise in heat pump installs so perhaps they would be onboard.

I'm also interest in this sort of arrangement because it may allow me to finish out the three bathrooms in the project as and when required.

 

I suppose there would be a lot of draining down/refilling so you'd would have to agree a number of visits from the contractor, and confirm who is responsibility for what leaks, etc.  

It may be a daft idea so I thought I'd ask for opinions here before going to the market!

Are you looking to get MCS / grant here? 

[Annker]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Are you looking to get MCS / grant here? 

Yes Nick, looking at MCS. As far as I can make out it seems well worth going that route.

[JohnMo]

2 minutes ago, Annker said:

Yes Nick, looking at MCS. As far as I can make out it seems well worth going that route.

Not always, many get a massive oversized charge for additional overheads that MCS requires. You also have a time frame from application to completion, to get the grant.

 

If you are planning to run parts of the system in different stages, you are going to have add a buffer and live with the efficiency hit, to allow the heat pump to function correctly. Then when all the heating is in, remove the buffer. To get a piece meal system to function will take a little thought and planning.

[Annker]

8 hours ago, sharpener said:

 

I would say perfectly feasible. You would of course have to spec the HP with this in mind and also have enough of a thermal load for the contractor to be able to commission the HP in the first place. Main problems I can forsee are more to do with the BUS grant and MCS paperwork than physical installation.

 

The other possibility is to talk to an MCS umbrella company (Aira?) who will spec and commission the system while leaving the actual installation to be done by others (including you).

 

Might be better to ask the mods to move this to the ASHP forum as there is more experience of unusual setups on there.

 

 

I would say get him to fit isolating valves in strategic places, I would go for full bore quality ball valves e.g. Pegler to be sure they will work when required.

Yes Sharpener that makes sense, perhaps If the rad installation was left within the ASHP package it may help a cleaner commissioning process.

 

I have read about the umbrella route but where I am happy to (at least consider) taking on the 2nd fix, I will certainly leave the heat systems proper to a MCS reg'd contractor.    

[Annker]

11 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Not always, many get a massive oversized charge for additional overheads that MCS requires. You also have a time frame from application to completion, to get the grant.

 

If you are planning to run parts of the system in different stages, you are going to have add a buffer and live with the efficiency hit, to allow the heat pump to function correctly. Then when all the heating is in, remove the buffer. To get a piece meal system to function will take a little thought and planning.

I had imagine that "in theory" a contractor should quote the same baseline figure whether going the MCS route or not.

Then add on additional administrative costs (unsure if the installation differs and raise some more additional cost) which add up to being less than the value of the grant, therefore making MCS financial incentivised.

Although perhaps in reality contractors are miking the MCS a little.

 

From the single quote I have had returned, I thought it read that the contractor was deducting the £7500 grant from his cost/my bill and would apply and receive that payment directly himself. Although I may have misunderstood how that works, and in fact I have to pay the contractor that £7500 and then I have to wait for reimbursement.

Regardless a good point to be nailed down prior to work commencing.   

 

WRT a piece meal setup, it does sound a little bit messy and in my experience that's when systems start to have problems.

If the heating was all fully installed, but the domestic HW (bathrooms) were piecemeal would that still require a buffer installed until the heating and all the HW were fully finished? 

 

 

 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Annker said:

had imagine that "in theory" a contractor should quote the same baseline figure whether going the MCS route or not.

Then add on additional administrative costs (unsure if the installation differs and raise some more additional cost) which add up to being less than the value of the grant, therefore making MCS financial incentivised.

Although perhaps in reality contractors are miking the MCS a little

In theory yes - in practice?

 

1 hour ago, Annker said:

and in fact I have to pay the contractor that £7500

Read the rules go direct to the BUS scheme wording so you know exactly where you stand.

 

DHW and heating system are different things. I would have whole central heating system done as one event. Include the DHW cylinder install and then have a distribution manifold with an isolator valve for each wet room from DHW cylinder. Then central heating is all sorted, DHW you just open the valve associated to the wet room when wet room is completed.

[Annker]

54 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

DHW and heating system are different things. I would have whole central heating system done as one event. Include the DHW cylinder install and then have a distribution manifold with an isolator valve for each wet room from DHW cylinder. Then central heating is all sorted, DHW you just open the valve associated to the wet room when wet room is completed.

The distribution valve sounds like a clean solution.

Being able to 2nd fix each bathroom as and when, and then simply turn a respective isolation valve to bring them online without affecting the heating system would be ideal.

 

[JohnMo]

9 minutes ago, Annker said:

distribution valve

So use something like this

https://www.plumbingsuperstore.co.uk/product/hep2o-four-port-valved-manifold.html?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=19088411016&gbraid=0AAAAAouuUvBBf8JjHjM-jpvt1ytEskuKZ&gclid=CjwKCAiA_dDIBhB6EiwAvzc1cIRTqTj3BAbhUmiDSZ9ZA72yeXC9NxZJomU3TMvJX9sYznUZNVbQWhoCuJoQAvD_BwE

 

If the manifold is close to cylinder pipe in 22mm, if you decide to locate remote and more central pipe in 15mm from cylinder to manifold. I used one isolation valves per wetroom and branched in room itself. Other pipe to each outlet in wetroom with its own isolation valve.

[Annker]

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

So use something like this

https://www.plumbingsuperstore.co.uk/product/hep2o-four-port-valved-manifold.html?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=19088411016&gbraid=0AAAAAouuUvBBf8JjHjM-jpvt1ytEskuKZ&gclid=CjwKCAiA_dDIBhB6EiwAvzc1cIRTqTj3BAbhUmiDSZ9ZA72yeXC9NxZJomU3TMvJX9sYznUZNVbQWhoCuJoQAvD_BwE

 

If the manifold is close to cylinder pipe in 22mm, if you decide to locate remote and more central pipe in 15mm from cylinder to manifold. I used one isolation valves per wetroom and branched in room itself. Other pipe to each outlet in wetroom with its own isolation valve.

Thanks John very helpful.

Plan is not to have a hot return, therefore in very simple terms for now this would look schematically like:

• 22mm or 15mm pipe from the cylinder to a 6 port manifold located in the cellar adjacent to the cylinder, or possibly in the utility room above  
• Then from that 6 port manifold 6x single 15mm pipes to:
  • Bathroom
  • Ensuite 1
  • Ensuite 2
  • WC
  • Kitchen
  • Utility
• Then within each bathroom/ensuite a 2 or 3 port manifold feeding shower/basin/bath as necessary.

Edited 1 hour ago by Annker
Correction

[JohnMo]

5 minutes ago, Annker said:

Then within each bathroom/ensuite a 2 or 3 port manifold feeding shower/basin/bath as necessary.

Or tee off the main pipe