Building over an Access/Inspection chamber

[Spinny]

@JuddlyFire No I don't believe it does imply that. 

My reading of it is that where a drain serves more than one property then it is a public sewer and it the responsibility of the sewer company. So this means the red extends to and includes the first chamber only. Nothing beyond that is used by more than one property.

 

However the pipework between the neighbours private chamber and my public chamber is also the responsibility of the sewer company but only where it runs on my property. That is the section on my property is buff coloured and is a lateral drain.

 

Therefore I believe the neighbour requires a lateral build over agreement from the sewer company. Presumably it will be up to the sewer company whether they will grant this when the neighbour plans to build over their chamber restricting the sewer company's ability to rod the lateral drain they own from the upstream side ?

Edited Sunday at 16:38 by Spinny

[mjc55]

1 hour ago, Spinny said:

@JuddlyFire No I don't believe it does imply that. 

My reading of it is that where a drain serves more than one property then it is a public sewer and it the responsibility of the sewer company. So this means the red extends to and includes the first chamber only. Nothing beyond that is used by more than one property.

 

However the pipework between the neighbours private chamber and my public chamber is also the responsibility of the sewer company but only where it runs on my property. That is the section on my property is buff coloured and is a lateral drain.

 

Therefore I believe the neighbour requires a lateral build over agreement from the sewer company. Presumably it will be up to the sewer company whether they will grant this when the neighbour plans to build over their chamber restricting the sewer company's ability to rod the lateral drain they own from the upstream side ?

 

@Spinny I think your logic is flawed!  The part from outside your property to the drain on your land is indeed public sewer, from the drain to the boundary with your neighbour is 'Lateral' therefore responsibility of water co.  Everything else, from the drain on your land to your house is your responsibility and from the fence onwards is the neighbours responsibility.

[Spinny]

@mjc55 That is the same as what I said in different words.

As the neighbours will be building over a lateral drain which is the responsibility of the sewer company, they will require agreement to do that from the sewer company in the form of a lateral build over agreement.

Whether the sewer company will accept the neighbour's (IMO daft as a brush) wish to build over their only drain access and rodding point will be up to the sewer company.

Any building regs will also apply, but it is still somewhat unclear to me whether they do apply in any way to private drains ? 

 

Edited Monday at 09:24 by Spinny

[kandgmitchell]

Just to clarify it's Part H of the Approved Documents which cover drainage in England and Wales - G covers hot and cold water, sanitary facilities etc.

 

Internal manholes are not uncommon - most large commercial buildings will have them. Building over a private inspection chamber is also not uncommon and this is covered by Para 2.54 which requires internal manholes to have screwed down airtight covers. Presumably this is what your neighbour will have below the trap door access. Building control will no doubt check this. I'm not saying it's a nice thing to have but that's their problem.

 

All this is being done on a private drain for which the Water Company have no responsibility. When that drain crosses onto your property then they do have a responsibility to maintain it as a lateral drain until it reaches your manhole where it become public from there.

 

Where this enters a grey area is "building over" includes "building within 3.0m of". Now if that extension is more than 3.0m from where the pipe crosses the boundary then clearly they are not affecting the lateral drain at all and what they do under the extension is purely between them and building control. However, if the extension is within the 3.0m then technically it may need a build over agreement. It will depend very much on which WC it is - some are more relaxed than others. In any case though it is probably unlikely that they will object to an enclosed manhole on the private part particularly if the only affected party is the one that's done the work and it doesn't directly impact the structure of the pipe they maintain.

 

The best place to check is your WC website and look under "developers". Their policy towards build overs is to be found there.

[Spinny]

Thanks @kandgmitchell.

Yes we can say it is 'their problem' however it has ramifications for us and for all future owners of both properties.

 

IMO if you cannot afford to do the job properly then you shouldn't do it at all.

 

We all know how these things work. Down the line if there is a drain problem they will be coming down our driveway to rod it, not taking up the nice floor they have laid over the top of their manhole. And if the drain blocks they will be laughing their heads off saying 'there is nothing we can do from our side' as 'stuff' emerges from our ground drains.

[Mr Punter]

1 minute ago, Spinny said:

Thanks @kandgmitchell.

Yes we can say it is 'their problem' however it has ramifications for us and for all future owners of both properties.

 

IMO if you cannot afford to do the job properly then you shouldn't do it at all.

 

We all know how these things work. Down the line if there is a drain problem they will be coming down our driveway to rod it, not taking up the nice floor they have laid over the top of their manhole. And if the drain blocks they will be laughing their heads off saying 'there is nothing we can do from our side' as 'stuff' emerges from our ground drains.

 

Umm no.  If you are upstream of them, their blocked drain will cause yours to back up.  If you are downstream of them (which seems to be the case) any blockage on their side will not affect you.  If their drains need jetting or rodding, they would be better doing this from their side or they risk pushing the blockage further up the pipes on their side.

[kandgmitchell]

6 hours ago, Spinny said:

And if the drain blocks they will be laughing their heads off saying 'there is nothing we can do from our side' as 'stuff' emerges from our ground drains.

I'm not sure this will be the case. Drains normally block at junctions, bends or manholes unless there is a pipe dislodgement which is rare. 

 

A blockage anywhere from your common manhole up the lateral drain and into their property would result in them suffering the result. Hopefully they would have an outside gully which overflows. Worst case is there is no gully and the first they are aware of a problem is when the kitchen sink backs up. If that sink is connected to a soil pipe then they really have a problem because that's quite a head of effluent sitting above a very full manhole......

 

All that effluent is shut inside their part of the drainage system and it will not impact you. If the blockage is within the common manhole or below, then that is a joint problem and yes being lower you will detect the issue first. The WC are responsible for dealing with that and you should call them asap. In that scenario both you and your neighbour are contributing to the contents of the drain and this could have happened whether or not they built an extension.

[mr rusty]

Quote

As the neighbours will be building over a lateral drain which is the responsibility of the sewer company, they will require agreement to do that from the sewer company in the form of a lateral build over agreement.

They won't be building over a lateral drain. It's a lateral only as far as your boundary. On their side it's a private drain and they can do what they like (within the bounds of normal building regs). They don't need a buildover agreement and utility company don't need to be involved.

[mjc55]

22 hours ago, Spinny said:

@mjc55 That is the same as what I said in different words.

As the neighbours will be building over a lateral drain which is the responsibility of the sewer company, they will require agreement to do that from the sewer company in the form of a lateral build over agreement.

Whether the sewer company will accept the neighbour's (IMO daft as a brush) wish to build over their only drain access and rodding point will be up to the sewer company.

Any building regs will also apply, but it is still somewhat unclear to me whether they do apply in any way to private drains ? 

 

I don't agree that we are saying the same thing but there you go, let's agree to disagree!

[Spinny]

1 hour ago, mr rusty said:

They won't be building over a lateral drain. It's a lateral only as far as your boundary.

They will be building over a lateral drain as they are building at the boundary. A lateral drain is considered part of the public sewer system and is the responsibility of the water company. According to the water company standard criteria, if you are building within 0.5m of a public sewer you will need a build over agreement.

 

Whether they are aware of this, or the fact they cannot build over a gas pipe remains to be seen. 

When should a building notice be served ?

Edited yesterday at 09:10 by Spinny

[kandgmitchell]

Not sure about 0.5m, Anglian Water specify 3.0m as do Thames Water and most if not all other WC's.  If you measure that as a radius then you should include works within 3.0m of where the lateral drain becomes public , i.e at the boundary crossing point.

 

However, as I say, your neighbour is potentially impacting only their own services and I can't see a problem developing to such a point where you may be impacted without things already becoming extremely unpleasant for them.........

[Nickfromwales]

Storm in a teacup here methinks, sorry!

 

Let them bury their own manhole, the only thing they really need to do is add a rodding eye downstream that looks back up the pipe to the then buried chamber, so they don’t have to come on to your property to jet that.

 

If you don’t have any issue with them having 1:10 year access then let them fill their boots.

 

If the manhole on your drive that accepts both houses has ever blocked then that’s a network issue, but if there are snots where say feminine products or baby wipes have snagged, then ask your neighbour to pay to have someone line it or chip the snots away, stating concerns of previous blockages, shake hands, and go about your day.