Here We Go Again ....

[TerryE]

@Cambs, Your build shares many similarities with ours which is now complete apart from odd jobs like paving the front drive and putting on the porch.    We TF + external stone skin gives fantastic decrement delays as well as looking very pleasing.  We just use a Willis heater to heat the ground floor slab.  No upstairs heating; not even in the ensuites.  OK, the upstairs is about 1-2°C cooler than the downstairs, say 20°C up and 21°C down, but what we've already noticed in the new house is that whilst we used to swap between winter-wear and summer-sear in oour old farmhouse, we just use summer-wear all the time in the new house.  It just doesn't get cold.  Also no rads cluttering walls.  Nice and simple -- if you've made sure that your builder has addressed all of the insulation and potential bridging issues that could compromise on passive-class performance.

 

This warm slab which is floated before the frame is erected works brilliantly.  We just covered the entire ground floor in slate.  A simple cheap and effective finish.  My wife just pads around in bare feet most of the time because she likes the feel of the warm slate on feet.  

 

Also 60° angled reveals are essential IMO with cottage-style windows.  They just seem to open out the light into the rooms.

[Cambs]

1 minute ago, TerryE said:

@Cambs, Your build shares many similarities with ours which is now complete apart from odd jobs like paving the front drive and putting on the porch.    We TF + external stone skin gives fantastic decrement delays as well as looking very pleasing.  We just use a Willis heater to heat the ground floor slab.  No upstairs heating; not even in the ensuites.  OK, the upstairs is about 1-2°C cooler than the downstairs, say 20°C up and 21°C down, but what we've already noticed in the new house is that whilst we used to swap between winter-wear and summer-sear in oour old farmhouse, we just use summer-wear all the time in the new house.  It just doesn't get cold.  Also no rads cluttering walls.  Nice and simple -- if you've made sure that your builder has addressed all of the insulation and potential bridging issues that could compromise on passive-class performance.

 

This warm slab which is floated before the frame is erected works brilliantly.  We just covered the entire ground floor in slate.  A simple cheap and effective finish.  My wife just pads around in bare feet most of the time because she likes the feel of the warm slate on feet.  

 

Also 60° angled reveals are essential IMO with cottage-style windows.  They just seem to open out the light into the rooms.

 

Hi @TerryE, how have you found the summer temperatures in the “rooms in roof” floor?  Our last build was a one and a half storey with a number of dormers, and it used to be unbearable sometimes during the hot weather, albeit it wasn’t a super efficient build. 

[TerryE]

The advantage of passive class + MVHR is that the house acts like a thermos -- good for keeping heat in or out.  Read JSHs blog.  Active cooling is always a potential issue / requirement which is why Jeremy uses his ASHP to cool the slab in winter.  WE have yet to see how our house performs during the height of summer, but I suspect that this might be the issue which triggers us into installing an ASHP.

[Cambs]

20 minutes ago, TerryE said:

The advantage of passive class + MVHR is that the house acts like a thermos -- good for keeping heat in or out.  Read JSHs blog.  Active cooling is always a potential issue / requirement which is why Jeremy uses his ASHP to cool the slab in winter.  WE have yet to see how our house performs during the height of summer, but I suspect that this might be the issue which triggers us into installing an ASHP.

I’m hopeful that the combination of stone skin + cellulose insulated timber frame and roof will give us sufficient decrement delay to regulate summer temperatures.  If I have an ASHP (site has no gas) then this may help matters in the very hot weather.  

 

In our last house, we had an MVHR with (supposed) comfort cooling - it did reduce temperatures by a degree or two but nowhere near sufficient to really cool anything down.  I think the expression “I was sold a pup” springs to mind but then I didn’t know any better then....

[Ferdinand]

I am going to be contrarian here because awkward questions are useful, but something about that plan feels a bit uh-oh to me ; that it may not work or be inefficient, and I am having trouble putting my finger on it. Forgive my rambling. I think marginal changes may make a big difference here.

 

SImple things first.

 

The plan feels long and thin, and rather intricate with those half-floor levels, and losing a lot of space to the walls and stairs. I think those 45 degree window rebates would be a good feature.

 

I like the basic layout of upstairs, especially an ensuite for Bed 2. I think that having a circulation landing as big as Bed 4 must be improvable; a third to a half of that landing should be in Bed 4 to make it 30% bigger.

 

I think your downstairs wc really wants to be next to the utility and kitchen .. those look like long and over complicated supply and soil pipe runs to the far corner.

 

Is there enough circulation space round that island? IMO you need 1.3-1.5m all the way round - comfortable to pass for two of you, one with a big tray. This has been discussed elsewhere in detail on other threads. Try a search.

 

Now for a couple of things that I need help on from BHers.

 

- Kitchen not integrated

 

I am not sure it is as open plan as it looks, due to the convoluted and complex half level spaces. I think that the space between the kitchen and the rest may not flow; there is nowhere to flump and chat with the cook while supping a beer or a coffee other than sitting at th table. The rest of the gnd floor is functional, and the snug is round the corner and down the stairs.

 

Have you a 3D internal render of the kitchen and snug? IMO It needs something as simple as a 2 seat flumping sofa or chaise longue in the kitchen, or provision for space for one, or integration into another space on the GNd Flr, which does not cost on this plan as is because doors and stairs are everywhere.

 

- Circulation space and routes

 

This seems very, perhaps unnecessarily, complex - going for a perambulation round the staircase to get into the house from the front door seems strange for a start. Then you have 2 lots of staircases, and a hall closet (? - could that be under the stairs?) in the middle of it all, and that big lobby on floor 1.5 for bed 3/4.

 

Between that lot you may be losing an entire extra room worth of space to circulation.

 

I would be interested in what percentage of space is lost to circulation.

 

Will post this now and do another with 2 suggestions.

 

F

 

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Ferdinand

[TerryE]

We have gas in our village but we didn't bother -- forget the one-off installation and boiler costs; the maintenance cost that we avoid by having no gas boiler is more than the extra cost of using only electricity (using and E7 tariff)  We do have a propane cylinder feeding two gas rings which are fall-back to our induction hob.  The main challenge if in the detail of the thermal design and avoiding bridging which is one reason why we went with MBC.   You want a company like MBC or one its specialist competitors who has a consistent track record for delivering this class of house.

[Ferdinand]

Suggestions.

 

Option 1 - create extra space for kitchen

 

Move the utility door to the other side.

Lose the hall cupboard from its current situation and move the snug staircase 1m left to be under the bedroom lobby one upstairs.  

Move downstairs loo to other side of study so pipes combine with utility, or put inside utility.

Make study 3 aspect by incorporating loo space.

Put hall cupboard somewhere suitable. Lots of options :-) .

 

That will create extra wall space next to the kitchen both sides for a relaxing-with-chef  corner, or whatever you want.

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Cambs]

9 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I am going to be contrarian here because awkward questions are useful, but something about that plan feels a bit uh-oh to me ; that it may not work or be inefficient, and I am having trouble putting my finger on it. Forgive my rambling. I think marginal changes may make a big difference here.

 

SImple things first.

 

The plan feels long and thin, and rather intricate with those half-floor levels, and losing a lot of space to the walls and stairs. I think those 45 degree window rebates would be a good feature.

 

I like the basic layout of upstairs, especially an ensuite for Bed 2. I think that having a circulation landing as big as Bed 4 must be improvable; a third to a half of that landing should be in Bed 4 to make it 30% bigger.

 

I think your downstairs wc really wants to be next to the utility and kitchen .. those look like long and over complicated supply and soil pipe runs to the far corner.

 

Is there enough circulation space round that island? IMO you need 1.3-1.5m all the way round - comfortable to pass for two of you, one with a big tray. This has been discussed elsewhere in detail on other threads. Try a search.

 

Now for a couple of things that I need help on from BHers.

 

- Kitchen not integrated

 

I am not sure it is as open plan as it looks, due to the convoluted and complex half level spaces. I think that the space between the kitchen and the rest may not flow; there is nowhere to flump and chat with the cook while supping a beer or a coffee other than sitting at th table. The rest of the gnd floor is functional, and the snug is round the corner and down the stairs.

 

Have you a 3D internal render of the kitchen and snug? IMO It needs something as simple as a 2 seat flumping sofa or chaise longue in the kitchen, or provision for space for one, or integration into another space on the GNd Flr, which does not cost on this plan as is because doors and stairs are everywhere.

 

- Circulation space and routes

 

This seems very, perhaps unnecessarily, complex - going for a perambulation round the staircase to get into the house from the front door seems strange for a start. Then you have 2 lots of staircases, and a hall closet (? - could that be under the stairs?) in the middle of it all, and that big lobby on floor 1.5 for bed 3/4.

 

Between that lot you may be losing an entire extra room worth of space to circulation.

 

I would be interested in what percentage of space is lost to circulation.

 

Will post this now and do another with 2 suggestions.

 

F

 

 

 

Hi @Ferdinand, thank you for your comments.  Can I begin by saying that we would never have designed the house like this had we been able to start with a blank sheet of paper....  It was all dictated by the planners

 

The plot already had planning permission.  The plot is within the curtilage of a 17th century listed building and in a conservation area.  The Conservation Officer strongly opposed the original application.  We went through various pre-planning discussions for redesign which fell on deaf ears.  We could have submitted and appealed but chose not to.  

 

Apart from some external tweaks, the only change that we managed to get through was to sink one wing of the building into the ground by a metre to enable us to get a second floor (just about) above it.  Ridge heights, footprint and external layout were pretty fixed.  I was not happy about this!  This drives complexity into the design, to an extent.

 

Now, on you some of your comments....

 

The kitchen layout was for planning only - it’s not the final design and something that we are considering now.  You are right about the lack of circulation space around the island - it’s not enough.

 

I agree with you about the stairs - I’d prefer a more straight flight and it’s something I’m looking at.  It is driven to an extent by the complexity of the roof structure and the level changes and the need to be able to “land” upstairs with the necessary headroom

 

Good point about the WC - next to the utility might be better.  I think the upstairs layout with the plant room and two en suites in a row works pretty well to keep plumbing runs straightforward

 

I’m OK with not “flumping” (as it were!) in the kitchen - I’d just like to get a dining table and an island in there

[Ferdinand]

ARe you constrained as to the position of your front door? COuld It switch by 90 degrees to come into the side of the 'snug-block'?

 

The type of stair I am musing about is one with 4 half flights with half landings, so you can remove the extra half flights entirely. Needs some reflection, though, but would give you a lot of extra space and far better flow.

 

You might even be able to something with an open-well style, which could be spectacular.

 

Edit: OK. have a couple of thoughts which I will sketch up later.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

OK. Let's talk staircases. Then I'll be quiet :-).

 

If I fold your extra half-staircases into your main staircase, and move it into the dead space where that large lobby for bedroom 3/4 is (ie into the side block not the main volume),is at present I get a staircase concept looking a little like this, which for the parts you actually need (half landings are part of your existing floor) fits into a space of about 1.8m x 1m, while freeing up a significant space in the main volume. Notes at bottom.

 

(Done in the Pears Stairs Stair Creator: https://www.pearstairs.co.uk/staircreator/)

 

 

 

Fits in here roughly. Also a query on a bit of your structure - I am sure it lines up on scale drawings.

 

 

Gains and Losses.

 

+ your main house volume becomes completely unencumbered.

+ gain space in snug by putting stairs in corner.

+ bedroom 2 becomes as large as the master

+ depending on the handing you select, you get a much bigger bathroom

+ no or minimal change to external appearance

+ I make it that you get up to +10% useable space for free

+ personally I think it unifies your design

 - extra care needed wrt rooflines and levels - perhaps

 

Notes

 

- That is just a concept which need playing with to optimise. I would want as open a design of staircase as possible (glass, metal or cable balusters?).

- Care needed wrt to headroom at the top. Anticlockwise should be fine. Clockwise may need something like one of those semi-dormers at the top.

- The actual thing is taller than my concept, as the Pears Stairs Designer has a height limit. Depending on F2C height, there may be more steps.

- This is a house where you will be up and down stairs all the time. I would place a *very* high priority on shallow stairs ... 34-35 degrees not 42 degrees, even if it involved nobbling slightly into your main floorspace with the last stair or two - I think that would work design-wise. Shallow stairs make a helluva difference to perceived comfort. You could make the snug-kitchen run shallower than the rest - that would work and is where it is most needed.

- Since it is perhaps a retirement house, do you need to think about provision for a future lift as well as stairs (ie do not put a steel beam across the future hole in the floor)

 

I have shown the anticlockwise version above, so that your staircase is open to the space on the snug-kitchen flight to unify the space (gives a closet understairs in the snug), but personally I would go for the clockwise version, as it gives the extra space upstairs half to the family bathroom while still giving a bigger bed 2 / large lanbding cupboard. That would give you a nice walk-in shower in the bathroom, and more free space in the snug. See below.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Cambs]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

OK. Let's talk staircases. Then I'll be quiet :-).

 

Hi @Ferdinand, please don’t be quiet!!!!  Your help is very much appreciated and it’s one of the reasons why this place is so good.  Thank you for all of the time and effort you have put into this.

 

I need a bit of time to fully understand what you are proposing but I think it is a great idea.  The issue that springs to mind is do I have adequate headroom to do this....  I’ll have a cogitate over the next day or two and see whether I can make this work for me

Edited January 3, 2018 by Cambs

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, Cambs said:

 

Hi @Ferdinand, please don’t be quiet!!!!  Your help is very much appreciated and it’s one of the reasons why this place is so good.  Thank you for all of the time and effort you have put into this.

 

I need a bit of time to fully understand what you are proposing but I think it is a great idea.  The issue that springs to mind is do I have adequate headroom to do this.  I’ll have a cogitate over the next day or two and see whether I can make this work for me

 

Cheers. this is where 3D CAD packages can be useful.

 

OK. WOrking with the anti-clockwise version, which places the top flight of stairs in the same position on the x-axis on the plan as your half staircase, but 1m lower on the plan to be in the side gable bed3-4 part rather than the main block.

 

We know that moving my red rectangle about 1m towards the top will place the top flight in exactly the same position in all three planes as the short staircase in your current plan, so we know that that will fit headroom wise if your existing design works The cost is that the staircase in my concept is now protruding into the main block of the house by 1m and the open plan layout is somewhat compromised, though less than in your original.

 

The questions then become

 

1 how far that red rectangle can me moved towards the bottom before the headroom becomes unacceptable and

2 how can that constraint be mitigated to let the red rectangle be moved further towards the bottom

 

or, more precisely, how can the stair tread to ceiling height be optimised at the point the staircase goes through the wall upstairs, such that the open plan living space is not compromised while still meeting both building regulations and the look and feel and flow you want for your house?

 

things you have to adjust in this Chinese puzzle, assuming a hard constraint on the outside dimensions and ignoring an extra semi-dormer window because it looks twin axis and complicated, include:

 

- thinner roof eg by using shallower rafters on that roof plane or section closer together and hence shallower.

- less or thinner insulation in that part.

- putting your skylight exactly above the staircase where you need the headroom. Glazed skylight is about 200mm thinner than a normal roof build up. This may be the simplest - get a non-material amendment for a larger skylight.

- allow a step or three to run into the main block of the house upstairs ...  no problem since it is basically a corridor there. Each step which runs into the main block will give you about 150mm of extra headroom at the wall transition. This may be the other simplest way.

- make the floor of bed 3 and 4 a bit thinner or the ceiling in that part of the snug a bit lower.

- make the top flight longer than the others to run into the main block slightly. That may impact your levels further down 

- very careful reading of the Regs, which often give you leeway in directions you might not expect.

 

(I think there is also a totally different solution using staircases with winders, or even three x quarter-spirals, by treating the top flight as running left-right rather than top-down on the plan above. BUt it looks complicated to resolve and less elegant in circulation routes to me, so I will ignore that one)

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

PS ON the skylight, none of the drawings seem to show where it is or exactly what size it is, so you may already have PP in practice to move it and change it.

 

They are unlikely to enforce on the basis of 'it looks a bit different to me' where nothing is specified precisely.

 

PS2 Do you really need 4 bedrooms? Bed 3 with an ensuite and not Bed 4 night be a better idea, depending on usage plans(?) Bed 4 does look quite compromised. Or leave it bigger with the option of a stud wall later. or even do the overlapping bunk bed thing, or put a sleeping mazzanine for bed 4 over all or part of bed 3 open to the rafters. I have not calculated roof heights for this last comment.

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Cambs]

I think the missing skylight is on the roof plans. I only posted extracts from the drawings. 

 

Re 4 bedrooms, yes, we do need to squeeze a box room for one person in to the plan

[Ferdinand]

20 minutes ago, Cambs said:

I think the missing skylight is on the roof plans. I only posted extracts from the drawings. 

 

Re 4 bedrooms, yes, we do need to squeeze a box room for one person in to the plan

 

The trick I was talking about was to do a highish level bed platform in bed 4 built into the space in bed three where the medium or high levels cupboards would go over a desk or seat in bed 3, or a little lower over  a bank of base unit type cupboards. So one gets a bed and other gets a desk or built in seat or low level cupboards in the same space on the plan.

 

Just throwing out another idea, which may or may not be useful. I have not seen one of those for some years, but they seem to have dropped out of fashion whilst mezzanines are in.

 

F

 

 

[Cambs]

On 03/01/2018 at 08:10, Ferdinand said:

OK. Let's talk staircases. Then I'll be quiet :-).

 

If I fold your extra half-staircases into your main staircase, and move it into the dead space where that large lobby for bedroom 3/4 is (ie into the side block not the main volume),is at present I get a staircase concept looking a little like this, which for the parts you actually need (half landings are part of your existing floor) fits into a space of about 1.8m x 1m, while freeing up a significant space in the main volume. Notes at bottom.

 

 

Thanks for your feedback @Ferdinand, it took a bit of pondering and head scratching but I think I might have got there with the stairs.  Had to dust off my rusty SketchUp skills.  The issue I had was that the upstairs wall in the Bedroom 3 and 4 area was only 1m high, so I struggled at first to get the required 2m head height.  This is what I came up with and it works for me....  Uses 2 quarter turn landings rather than winders.  As you suggested, using the dead lobby space next to bedrooms 3 and 4, takes the existing staircase out all together giving me a kitchen/dining/utility and study area largely unencumbered by staircases and frees up more space for Bedrooms 1 and 2.  All good ....  Hopefully the screen shots below will give some idea of how it looks.  Undecided as to whether to make it a feature (i.e. glass, steel, open treads) or to, at least partially, box it in to reduce noise transmission to upstairs - that's a decision for the future, I think....

 

 

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

@Cambs

 

Glad it is helping.

 

It will take a bit to get my head around your piccies. I think I need a plasticene model :-).

 

Could you post a stack of plans at each of the 5 levels? That would help us, I think - particularly on vertical alignment of the various stairways.

 

Check Q 1: Have you got space at bed 3/4 level to walk to the small bedroom door without compromising the size of the other bedroom too much?

 

Check Q 2 : Might it be better to make the two QT landings into a single larger one without the single step between, rather than require people to go up stairs, turn, go up a single step, turn, then go up more stairs? The loss would be either your stairs *up* from the kitchen/living level protruding 9" more or so into that area, or your stairs to the top level and the Bed 3/4 protruding 9" more into those.

 

I think if I were thinking about walling, the most likely candidate would be to wall the steps from the kitchen to the 'snug' off from the main staircase. But how you do that will have a large effect in look and feel. A good idea might be to design it such that wallings-off can be added later anywhere.

 

Let's see what other BHers think. I would say now leave it alone for a few days, focus on something else (like the study, which I might try and make a triple aspect front-to-back 'studio' with big windows), then come back and have another look.

 

I probably have a couple of comments but I also want to mull it over. I think considerations of how to make the kitchen area and basement a perceived single space are important, as are the look and feel and flow of the staircase such that it feels natural and easy,

 

You may need to check (at some stage) suitability requirements for stairlifts or alternatives, to check against current requirements.

 

Ditto fire alarms and potentially sprinklers. Maybe.

Ferdinand

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Cambs]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

 

Check Q 1: Have you got space at bed 3/4 level to walk to the small bedroom door without compromising the size of the other bedroom too much?

 

Check Q 2 : Might it be better to make the two QT landings into a single larger one without the single step between, rather than require people to go up stairs, turn, go up a single step, turn, then go up more stairs? The loss would be either your stairs *up* from the kitchen/living level protruding 9" more or so into that area, or your stairs to the top level and the Bed 3/4 protruding 9" more into those.

 

Q1 and Q2 can probably be answered together and it was one of the things that caused a bit of head scratching.  Bedroom 3 is not huge and Bedroom 4 is small - this solution keeps these bedrooms the same size as they are now and puts a landing immediately outside the two doors, so yes we can access both bedrooms from this landing (Check Q1) but if we were to make the 2 quarter landings into a single larger one (Check Q2) and added a stair to each of the stairs at the top level, then we would no longer have a viable landing for Beds 3 and 4.  Similarly, I wouldn't want to lose any more space by pushing the stairs into the kitchen/living level.