Ceiling Deflection

[Wolfman310]

Hi there. 
 

Need some advise regarding the following please… 
 

Whilst in the shower I noticed what I thought was the ceiling having a slight bow in it, and I was right. 
 

It’s a bungalow so ground floor ceiling in to the loft. 
 

it is circa deflecting 2cm and is in the location of a hot water cylinder that OSO came and installed circa October last year. 
 

I am concerned just how much it has moved especially as it is enough for me to see whilst showering. 
 

Do these things get to a point and then settle or should I be going back to OSO? 
 

The large timber with the  joist hangers were already present  and had a 170ltr Telford cylinder on it and some other useless timber. 

the smaller timbers supporting the rear of the cylinder span a smaller number of timbers and is what OSO installed for their 250ltr cylinder. 
 

I think the timbers they installed are the ones putting the strain as they aren’t spreading the weight across enough and is roughly in the location. 
 

Any views as i think it may just get worse?
 

if so i will need to ask OSO to rectify and need to support it better. (They were told about my concerns beforehand as a quote from telford identified the need to support the rear of the cylinder and this was passed on to Oso) 

 

Edited yesterday at 11:11 by Wolfman310
Add photos that were missing

[Nickfromwales]

Ouch. Yes, defo an issue, but I’d bet the deflection started before this and has now just got worse. 
 

What they should have done is butt timbers to that large timber (running perpendicular) and screwed them together with construction screws, and then had those perpendicular timbers head off to meet the wall plate, or at least sit on 2-4 of the smaller original roof timbers.

 

Needs sorting sooner than later, and afaic that timber work they’ve done is utter shite, placing the load directly onto one small existing timber is appalling workmanship. 
 

Did OSO do it or a sub contractor? 

[Wolfman310]

Thanks for your quick reply, really appreciated. Is what I suspected too. 

 

I will contact them first thing Monday morning.  
 

I suspect you’re right, the deflection was only very small beforehand as the original cylinder was almost fully on the large timber which spans a long way across. Wasn’t the screws popping or cracks beforehand either. 

 

The timber they have installed crosses maybe 3 existing ceiling timbers, but if they had gone one longer across is a supporting wall (bottom left of the cylinder you can see the brickwork)   with the brickwork supporting the roof which wouldn’t have hindered. 
 

it was Oso themselves which is frustrating.

 

They sent out the lead engineer beforehand to see what they were working with due to my concerns as they originally thought it would be ok with just the one large timber and I said it wouldn’t. 

the lead engineer came and installed the timbers, one length which was cut in the roof in half and the two nailed together as was left and can see the nail popping through. 
 

two less experienced engineers then did the install once he had finished and the experienced one left for another job. 
 

hopefully Oso won’t argue and just fix it properly. I could see them suggesting it isn’t their problem. 

 

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, Wolfman310 said:

I could see them suggesting it isn’t their problem

If they do, tell them it'll be your insurers who are contacting them next! Not sure how the ceiling will be returned to its original position (flat)?

[Wolfman310]

I am hoping they do the right thing. 
 

I think the existing timbers will have to be removed and replaced to straighten it back out. 
 

Fingers crossed, will update with progress. 


 

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Wolfman310 said:

I am hoping they do the right thing. 
 

I think the existing timbers will have to be removed and replaced to straighten it back out. 
 

Fingers crossed, will update with progress. 


 

 

I think if they address this fully, then you’d just ask them to cover the removal and reinstatement costs of the cylinder to allow a carpenter to come in and re-twang the ceiling rafters (probably still doable without pulling down the ceiling) and tbh I’d expect you’d have to bear the cost of the carpentry there; this was very likely already on its journey back to the centre of the earth, so best to be reasonable and pragmatic when approaching OSO imho.

 

Ask the carpenter for additional cost to create the proper platform for the cylinder, and ask OSO to meet that cost in isolation.
 

The cylinder will need to be removed (emptied and moved to the other side of the attic) and reinstated, so ask OSO to provide a plumber to remove and reinstate.

 

Oh, expect to have to fill and sand / repaint the ceiling, but tbh it’d be cheaper and a far better job to have a plasterer in to scrim tape the cracks / joints, PVA it, and then re skim it before a fresh coat of paint.

[Wolfman310]

Some great points again, thanks for this, has really helped.
 

The secondary works to the bathroom I would just take the hit on as it will be refit at some point anyway as it needs to become a wet room for our son so would be a fair offer for that to be ignored or like you say get it skimmed. 
 

Good idea about a carpenter, will certainly be suggesting this. 

 

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

20 hours ago, Wolfman310 said:

They sent out the lead engineer

Probably not an engineer.

20 hours ago, Wolfman310 said:

two less experienced engineers

Probably Level 3 technicians at best.

 

It seems odd that that to fit PV panels, though the MCS system, a qualified structural engineer has to sign of the roof structure, but to put quarter of a tonne of hot water above people needs nothing.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Probably not an engineer.

Probably Level 3 technicians at best.

 

It seems odd that that to fit PV panels, though the MCS system, a qualified structural engineer has to sign of the roof structure, but to put quarter of a tonne of hot water above people needs nothing.

Yup. Crazy. People have been dying from collapsed, boiled CWS tanks for a long time, so it’s not as if the risk isn’t there.

 

This is why I usually do a day on structural carpentry, including boarding for access and so we can work safely, upgrading / adding insulation where we’re covering voids, and adding service lighting etc, as these jobs should be taken seriously and done properly.

 

Thos one just looks like a hit and run, which (from a major player) seems pretty poor tbh.

 

Let us know how you get on. 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

to put quarter of a tonne of hot water above people needs nothing

It is worrying indeed. 

Fortunately we Engineeers (capital letter but not a protected title) include quite a lot of overdesign for unforeseen loads, including idiocy. Hence the ceiling  has deflected but not fallen down yet.

 

But a certain amount of intelligence and knowledge is expected of any trade, and they are liable and must not only straighten the ceiling but ensure that the roof remains strong enough for wind, snow, storage. 

They should be getting either the original designer or another to report and advise.  

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

It is worrying indeed. 

Fortunately we Engineeers (capital letter but not a protected title) include quite a lot of overdesign for unforeseen loads, including idiocy. Hence the ceiling  has deflected but not fallen down yet.

 

But a certain amount of intelligence and knowledge is expected of any trade, and they are liable and must not only straighten the ceiling but ensure that the roof remains strong enough for wind, snow, storage. 

They should be getting either the original designer or another to report and advise.  

Would that not fall between the original installer of the since removed smaller UVC, and OSO, and require an interesting ‘debate’ about who caused what damage / deflection and when…….

A hiding to nothing imho.

 

[SteamyTea]

8 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

People have been dying from collapsed, boiled CWS tanks for a long time, so it’s not as if the risk isn’t there.

Was one down here, but not that recently.

https://www.building.co.uk/news/hse-issues-boiler-warning-after-scalding-deaths/3092050.article

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Would that not fall between the original installer of the since removed smaller UVC, and OSO, and require an interesting ‘debate’ about who caused what damage / deflection and when

If it was at work, the the Health and Safety Act states that 'you are responsible for your own, and other peoples' safety'.

I am sure there is a similar statement for doing work for people, vicarious liability is complicated though.

[Nickfromwales]

27 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

If it was at work, the the Health and Safety Act states that 'you are responsible for your own, and other peoples' safety'.

I am sure there is a similar statement for doing work for people, vicarious liability is complicated though.

That mostly refers to “whilst the works are being undertaken” methinks.

 

Poor workmanship is one for small claims here, but too much ambiguity over who did what / when did this start going wrong etc. 

 

Bottom line is, OSO should have done a report first to show deflection, then put in a request for the client to get a qualified carpenter in to undertake the work in anticipation, then they come and fit the cylinder. They (expletive deleted)ed up massively here, so it is true that they should offer to correct the whole problem, as a gesture of goodwill.

 

Let’s see what they say / offer in compensation etc. 

[Wolfman310]

I have tracked down some original names and I dealt with the service and warranty manager. 
 

So will go back to him I think and explain. 
 

 Not sure it was worth over £2K in hindsight.

[Nickfromwales]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing....... That's not a terrible price btw, if it was a great job obvs!

[Wolfman310]

Yeh, it was £600 cheaper than the equivalent Telford which also needed the expansion tanks on top too so in that respect wasn’t too bad. 
 

Telford weren’t very good at all and were disappointed in them. We only moved here in October 2023 so been fixing issues in a 1950’s bungalow. 
 

The previous Telford was only 10 years old but hadn’t been registered or serviced it turned out. Last year when we tried to service it with Telford and paid for the service, they came and refused as it was leaking and the welds were failing. 

they accepted that whether it was registered or serviced would have made no difference to it failing but would not give any discount or goodwill gesture. 
 

not that they had too but wanted them to stand by their product more especially as it would have made little difference. 
 

I am hoping Oso are going to fair better than Telford did.