Nickfromwales Posted February 12 Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said: Upstream, not downstream My bad, just zoomed in on a better screen. Downstream 🫡.
Mattg4321 Posted February 12 Author Posted February 12 Sorry for the poor picture. Yes, it’s after the PRV. Between that and the cylinder 1
Nickfromwales Posted February 12 Posted February 12 2 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said: Sorry for the poor picture. Yes, it’s after the PRV. Between that and the cylinder No probs there then as the control group doesn't have a NRV. Curiouser and curiouser
John Carroll Posted February 12 Posted February 12 (edited) I thought these control groups would consist of a pressure reducing valve, a pressure relief valve and a check valve, with the check valve after the PRV but before the expansion relief valve. Isn't a NRV installed somewhere mandatory with UVCs?. If there is no ckeck/NRV then maybe thats a possible cause of noisy operation with the EV precharge of 2.5bar or even lower as the water can expand back through the balanced cold, I would check out that installed control group. So, what does all this mean now??, are we saying that a UVC cannot operate properly at a dynamic pressure of 1.5 to 2bar, I think it certainly should if the user is happy with the flowrate, upgrading the supply may or may not fix the problem. I would think that if the EV is precharged to 1.5bar (which it is) and the PRV setting reduced to 1.8 to 2.0 bar (from 3.0bar, if adjustable) then there is no excuse for noisy operation IMO. Have a word with Teleford? or whoever the UVC manufacturer is. Edited February 12 by John Carroll
John Carroll Posted February 12 Posted February 12 (edited) You seem to have a Joule UVC, but not one with a internal bubble which they also manufacture. Is the inlet control group a Joule, it shows the EV connected to the inlet group although difficult to imagine why just teeing it in elsewhere should cause noise. I think its important to check that the control group has a check valve, if not Joule's. This bit is a bit confusing.......highlighted by me. EXPANSION VESSEL "The expansion vessel receives the increased water volume when expansion takes place as the system heats up and it maintains a positive pressure in the system. The expansion vessel contains a flexible diaphragm, which is initially charged on one side with nitrogen, but can be topped up with air when required. Select a suitable position for the expansion vessel. Mount it to the wall using the bracket provided and connect to the inlet control set with the flexible hose provided. Ensure that the top of the vessel is accessible for servicing. The pipe connecting the expansion vessel to the system should have a diameter of not less than 15mm and must not contain any restrictions. Prior to connecting the expansion vessel to the system the pipework should be flushed Joule Cyclone Installation Instructions.pdf Edited February 12 by John Carroll
Mattg4321 Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 21 hours ago, John Carroll said: You seem to have a Joule UVC, but not one with a internal bubble which they also manufacture. Is the inlet control group a Joule, it shows the EV connected to the inlet group although difficult to imagine why just teeing it in elsewhere should cause noise. I think its important to check that the control group has a check valve, if not Joule's. This bit is a bit confusing.......highlighted by me. EXPANSION VESSEL "The expansion vessel receives the increased water volume when expansion takes place as the system heats up and it maintains a positive pressure in the system. The expansion vessel contains a flexible diaphragm, which is initially charged on one side with nitrogen, but can be topped up with air when required. Select a suitable position for the expansion vessel. Mount it to the wall using the bracket provided and connect to the inlet control set with the flexible hose provided. Ensure that the top of the vessel is accessible for servicing. The pipe connecting the expansion vessel to the system should have a diameter of not less than 15mm and must not contain any restrictions. Prior to connecting the expansion vessel to the system the pipework should be flushed Joule Cyclone Installation Instructions.pdf 2.73 MB · 22 downloads The EV provided by Joule isn't actually a (the) Joule product. It's a Global Water Solutions EV. As an update. I pumped the EV back up to 2.5 bar to see what would happen. Noise got much worse. Even just opening basin tap caused fairly loud noises from the EV/cylinder. I let it back down to 1.5 bar and if anything seems slightly better than before. Only opening the bath tap wide open suddenly causes the gurgling/vibrating noises. If opened gently it's just a moderate hiss as the EV empties presumably. Also notably I tried measuring flow at hot bath tap. Got 28 litres per minute. So significantly more than the outside tap directly off the main. I guess this is proof the EV is acting as an accumulator. I can only think it must be the large difference between static pressure and dynamic pressure causing the noise. Maybe the diaphragm bottoming out? For now it's only a minor problem in it's current state to be honest. I think the only way to fix is to get a better flow by upgrading the main. 1
Mattg4321 Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 8 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: What temp is the UVC heated to? 60 degrees
Nickfromwales Posted February 13 Posted February 13 23 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said: 60 degrees Ok, so not really hot enough for micro-bubbling; this you can get when heating with 1 or 2 immersions at ~80-85oC where the water goes milky. You see this with a combi boiler when you run the hot tap really slowly and the water gets stupid hot in the PHE. Run the milky water into a glass, count to 3 and the waters completely clear again. Very curious, and I am thinking maybe the EV has a manufacturing defect. I think I'd put some money down one one possible eliminatory alteration, and that would be to tee the EV off the control group where it's designated to be connected in the MI's, and try that. Regardless of the cold mains, I don't think it should be doing this. The 28 lpm at the bath tap, does that start off blasting out and then tail off to a lower, constant lpm flow rate?, eg characteristic of the "EV as an accumulator" quotes. Bear in mind that they ALL do this to some degree, just yours more excessively it seems? Have you tried a wet test pressure gauge on the Schrader valve, to measure that pre-charge pressure in real time (taking one test at cool and another when hot?). You could then watch it whilst running a basin / bath tap etc to see how this performs. My 2 cents.
John Carroll Posted February 13 Posted February 13 44 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said: The EV provided by Joule isn't actually a (the) Joule product. It's a Global Water Solutions EV. As an update. I pumped the EV back up to 2.5 bar to see what would happen. Noise got much worse. Even just opening basin tap caused fairly loud noises from the EV/cylinder. I let it back down to 1.5 bar and if anything seems slightly better than before. Only opening the bath tap wide open suddenly causes the gurgling/vibrating noises. If opened gently it's just a moderate hiss as the EV empties presumably. Also notably I tried measuring flow at hot bath tap. Got 28 litres per minute. So significantly more than the outside tap directly off the main. I guess this is proof the EV is acting as an accumulator. I can only think it must be the large difference between static pressure and dynamic pressure causing the noise. Maybe the diaphragm bottoming out? For now it's only a minor problem in it's current state to be honest. I think the only way to fix is to get a better flow by upgrading the main. Have you got a link to that UVC? The accumulator effect will give 10.8L after a full reheat and 6.75L each time after the hot flow is stopped, in falling to 1.5bar so its effect will only last a few minutes, at best. 28LPM seems a extraordinarly high flow rate, especially if continuous, so no worries re flowrates, I would just motor on as is with a 1.5bar precharge?
Mattg4321 Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 5 minutes ago, John Carroll said: Have you got a link to that UVC? The accumulator effect will give 10.8L after a full reheat and 6.75L each time after the hot flow is stopped, in falling to 1.5bar so its effect will only last a few minutes, at best. 28LPM seems a extraordinarly high flow rate, especially if continuous, so no worries re flowrates, I would just motor on as is with a 1.5bar precharge? It tails off, so 28LPM wouldn't be sustained for too long. Will see how things go for a few weeks I think.
Mattg4321 Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 It's one of these https://www.mrcentralheating.co.uk/water-storage/unvented-cylinders/thermowave-18-litre-unvented-potable-expansion-vessel?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAzba9BhBhEiwA7glbaqbL_VFwijXyCmtOYqZedccRbzUq-NnH4RZxg7MUGEn2gvyofQtMVBoC2ywQAvD_BwE 1
John Carroll Posted February 13 Posted February 13 5 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said: It's one of these https://www.mrcentralheating.co.uk/water-storage/unvented-cylinders/thermowave-18-litre-unvented-potable-expansion-vessel?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAzba9BhBhEiwA7glbaqbL_VFwijXyCmtOYqZedccRbzUq-NnH4RZxg7MUGEn2gvyofQtMVBoC2ywQAvD_BwE Thats a link to the EV, Matt, have you a link to the UVC?.
Nickfromwales Posted February 13 Posted February 13 @Mattg4321 Have you got space for a 300l accumulator to go onto the cold mains in the plant room, to supply the control group with a steady (artificial) cold mains flow rate? May be a better, cheaper, and simpler spend vs digging up the garden. Would make the plumbing function very well indeed, and may remove this noise issue. If you know the supply to the house isn't rotted or lead or totally knackered, then leave alone and install a full cold mains accumulator and move on with your life a happy chap.
Mattg4321 Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 26 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: @Mattg4321 Have you got space for a 300l accumulator to go onto the cold mains in the plant room, to supply the control group with a steady (artificial) cold mains flow rate? May be a better, cheaper, and simpler spend vs digging up the garden. Would make the plumbing function very well indeed, and may remove this noise issue. If you know the supply to the house isn't rotted or lead or totally knackered, then leave alone and install a full cold mains accumulator and move on with your life a happy chap. No, although it could no doubt easily go in the garage as adjacent to where the main is. However, theres more chance of the sun rising in the west than that. Far more important things to be fitted in there!
Mattg4321 Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 29 minutes ago, John Carroll said: Thats a link to the EV, Matt, have you a link to the UVC?. https://www.plumbnation.co.uk/joule-cyclone-platinum-unvented-250l-indirect-short-cylinder-302-19749?utm_source=organic&utm_medium=shoppingfeed&utm_campaign=googlebase&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAzba9BhBhEiwA7glbagdV4fjHIm0Nbv5QTbyua3ayiSpIs0bGjZWV14UmKhapS2XfvEY_AhoCyLkQAvD_BwE 1
John Carroll Posted February 13 Posted February 13 13 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said: No, although it could no doubt easily go in the garage as adjacent to where the main is. However, theres more chance of the sun rising in the west than that. Far more important things to be fitted in there! If you are happy with the continuous HW flowrate then the only other thing I would try is to reduce the PRV setting to ~ 1.5bar to 1.8bar.
Mattg4321 Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 2 minutes ago, John Carroll said: If you are happy with the continuous HW flowrate then the only other thing I would try is to reduce the PRV setting to ~ 1.5bar to 1.8bar. I’ll have to look into how to do that, but it could work
Nickfromwales Posted February 14 Posted February 14 22 hours ago, John Carroll said: If you are happy with the continuous HW flowrate then the only other thing I would try is to reduce the PRV setting to ~ 1.5bar to 1.8bar. @Mattg4321 Are we talking here about being happy with the brief joyful 28lpm, or the crap flow rate after the EV has discharged? Leave the mains alone, and fit an accumulator, unless you can be 100% sure that there is a pot of gold to be found at the street that a new main supply will provide at the stopcock?
Mattg4321 Posted February 14 Author Posted February 14 34 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: @Mattg4321 Are we talking here about being happy with the brief joyful 28lpm, or the crap flow rate after the EV has discharged? Leave the mains alone, and fit an accumulator, unless you can be 100% sure that there is a pot of gold to be found at the street that a new main supply will provide at the stopcock? Agreed that an accumulator is the silver bullet, however, not a snowballs chance am I giving up garage space! As the noise seems to be better since I pumped it up then let it down, going to try living with it for a while and see how it goes.
John Carroll Posted February 14 Posted February 14 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said: Agreed that an accumulator is the silver bullet, however, not a snowballs chance am I giving up garage space! As the noise seems to be better since I pumped it up then let it down, going to try living with it for a while and see how it goes. What is the continuous HW flow?, just run that same HW bath tap that gave you the "accumulated" 28LPM but don't take a flow reading for say 8 to 10 minutes, or until the flow dies down, to ensure no boosting from your EV. For interest a (mains only) accumulator filling pressure of 4bar and a "user" pressure of 3.0 bar will provide 20L per 100L in falling from 4.0bar to 3.0bar, other numbers, 4.0bar to 2.5bar = 30L. 3.5bar to 2.5bar = 22.2L. 3.5bar to 2.0bar = 33.3L. 3.0bar to 2.0bar = 25L. Edited February 14 by John Carroll
Nickfromwales Posted February 14 Posted February 14 1 hour ago, Mattg4321 said: however, not a snowballs chance am I giving up garage space! vs dig the trench for a new main, pay for it, and find out it did the square root of fcuk all to improve the situation? A 300l accumulator doesn't take up a lot of space.... 1 hour ago, Mattg4321 said: As the noise seems to be better since I pumped it up then let it down, going to try living with it for a while and see how it goes. 🙏
Gus Potter Posted February 14 Posted February 14 On 12/02/2025 at 10:17, Nickfromwales said: So, do you need a cuddle or what? Yes thanks for the offer. xxx
Nickfromwales Posted February 14 Posted February 14 Just now, Gus Potter said: Yes thanks for the offer. xxx I'm a married man, mate, I'll take whatever is on offer. 1
Nickfromwales Posted February 14 Posted February 14 "What happens on the mile....stays on the mile" 2
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