Internorm Fitting and how to get an ok weather tight resolution.

[ClairedM]

As a once in a life time event  I’ve had Internorm Windows and sliding doors fitted. 

 

I not happy with the way the windows are fitted into the walls and the lack of external weather proofing. 

 I don’t know the correct words to get a resolution. I got check-mated by the MD when I said ‘but they’ve not made good the external wall’ with ‘We are installers and not builders. We do not make good’. But but it’s not weather proof.

The fitter is going to come back to fit sills - but is is just decorative. He told me I just needed to silicon bead the insides of the frame and re-plaster around the windows. BUT........

 

The M.D and fitter are coming twm to look (talk me round.)

 

Back sliding doors.

1. Under door gap.

about 1 meter of the frame is resting on only the ends of the floor boards. And the the area under the board is exposed to the outside. 

2. The top, the concrete lintel is exposed. And the black foam is push against the end of the ceiling plaster board.

3. Inside - the side of the inside of the window- the of the wall is exposed. 

Edited June 2 by ClairedM
additional text

[ClairedM]

Front door.

 

Is sitting on the houses original 1970s wooden threshold. 

Is the correct?

 

and I can see the outside around the frame at the bottom. 

Edited June 2 by ClairedM

[ClairedM]

Front sliding doors.

Bottom

When the took out the old doors at the back they told me to get some tiles and fill in the gaps. 

 

But this the front sliding doors the 'solution' to fill the gap under the doors was to replace the white PVC sill/step/ledge from the old door.. See the white below. I agreed to this but I’m not a builder or an engineer. 

 

But I'm worried as White PVC is now 20 years old and at the end of its life. Which is why I am having the windows replaced. It doesnt have any structural heavy loading material in it. (its PVC, with a compressed chip board sill.)

 

Top

The metal lintal of that supports the whole front of the house is exposed.

[ClairedM]

Windows inside and out.

 

Inside some of the wall cavity is just open.

The expanding foam has been left and not trimmed.

 

There are gaps in the external black foam.

 

 

Edited June 2 by ClairedM

[SteamyTea]

@craig

Your advice is probably needed here, I can't see the details too well on my phone.

[alexo]

I'm afraid I'm not suitably qualified to comment on whether this is a satisfactory install and the particular issues with fit, I am currently going through my own nightmare with a poorly fitted Internorm install.  I can only comment on what I've found out so far from the contractual side of things.

 

Beyond the legal minimums, the expected quality of fit is dependant on whether you specified a passiv install or not?  

 

Regarding making good, my window contract states:

 

The Company will make good any damage caused in the course of installation to plaster, floor, rendering or brickwork immediately surrounding any window or door installed. The

Company will not be responsible for any redecoration. The company does not guarantee to avoid causing superficial damage to surrounding wallpaper, paint work, floor covering or wall

tiles in the same area. The company accepts no responsibility for any damage resulting from structural or other defects in the building, particularly where lintels are not fitted over existing

windows to support the brickwork above.'

 

Does yours state anything like this that you could easily hold them to?

 

All UK window installs have to be fit to the minimum legal standard which I believe are the GGF guidelines detailed here: https://cwgchoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/the-good-practice-guide-for-the-installation-of-replacement-windows-and-doors.pdf. Have a look at this and see what it details regarding finish.

 

As far as I understand, the standards on minimum required levels of insulation around the frames are vague, so I am not sure how to argue this (I am currently going through this myself).  

 

But obviously at a minimum all windows and doors should be watertight and without wind whistling through so if they are not when the job is finished then you have a clear case and your installer will have to rectify this.

 

If your installer is one of the Internorm 1st window partners or higher, they have to meet the 10 Internorm customer care standards: https://www.internorm.com/en-uk/distribution-partner/1st-window-partner which has a vague line 'all work will be done in a careful manner, clean, and properly'.  And you could argue this is not being met.  

 

If they are a partner then installs should be done in accordance with 'Internorm's recommended installation methods'.  This was also stated in my window contract so might be on yours.  Now what these are, again, is massively vague.  I contacted Internorm to check these and I got a response back from my local rep that 'it depends on the envelope of the building', so I described my buildings envelope and asked for the details of the methods and received no further response. Another forum member has previously told me they believe they are no more than the legal minimum GGF guidelines, i.e. the spec that all windows need to be fitted to.  Hence all the problems with poor Internorm installs, when most rational people would expect a high spec window to be fitted to a high spec as standard.  I am starting to think there should be a subforum solely dedicated to unexpectedly poor Internorm installs.

 

You could email Internorm UK with a complaint and ask to be referred to your local rep who might get involved if you cannot resolve with your installer: https://uk.internorm.com/contact/

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2 by alexo

[ClairedM]

10 minutes ago, alexo said:

I'm afraid I'm not suitably qualified to comment on whether this is a satisfactory install and the particular issues with fit, I am currently going through my own nightmare with a poorly fitted Internorm install.  I can only comment on what I've found out so far from the contractual side of things.

 

Beyond the legal minimums, the expected quality of fit is dependant on whether you specified a passiv install or not?  

 

Regarding making good, my window contract states:

 

The Company will make good any damage caused in the course of installation to plaster, floor, rendering or brickwork immediately surrounding any window or door installed. The

Company will not be responsible for any redecoration. The company does not guarantee to avoid causing superficial damage to surrounding wallpaper, paint work, floor covering or wall

tiles in the same area. The company accepts no responsibility for any damage resulting from structural or other defects in the building, particularly where lintels are not fitted over existing

windows to support the brickwork above.'

 

Does yours state anything like this that you could easily hold them to?

 

All UK window installs have to be fit to the minimum legal standard which I believe are the GGF guidelines detailed here: https://cwgchoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/the-good-practice-guide-for-the-installation-of-replacement-windows-and-doors.pdf. Have a look at this and see what it details regarding finish.

 

As far as I understand, the standards on minimum required levels of insulation around the frames are vague, so I am not sure how to argue this (I am currently going through this myself).  

 

But obviously at a minimum all windows and doors should be watertight and without wind whistling through so if they are not when the job is finished then you have a clear case and your installer will have to rectify this.

 

If your installer is one of the Internorm 1st window partners or higher, they have to meet the 10 Internorm customer care standards: https://www.internorm.com/en-uk/distribution-partner/1st-window-partner which has a vague line 'all work will be done in a careful manner, clean, and properly'.  And you could argue this is not being met.  

 

If they are a partner then installs should be done in accordance with 'Internorm's recommended installation methods'.  This was also stated in my window contract so might be on yours.  Now what these are, again, is massively vague.  I contacted Internorm to check these and I got a response back from my local rep that 'it depends on the envelope of the building', so I described my buildings envelope and asked for the details of the methods and received no further response. Another forum member has previously told me they believe they are no more than the legal minimum GGF guidelines, i.e. the spec that all windows need to be fitted to.  Hence all the problems with poor Internorm installs, when most rational people would expect a high spec window to be fitted to a high spec as standard.  I am starting to think there should be a subforum solely dedicated to unexpectedly poor Internorm installs.

 

You could email Internorm UK with a complaint and ask to be referred to your local rep who might get involved if you cannot resolve with your installer: https://uk.internorm.com/contact/

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

Thank you. I will have a look at these standards.

Re contract - its vague and I didnt know to ask. I naively believed them. 

The contract says '

1. Installation (a)The estimated installation cost does not include skip hire, specialist lifting equipment, scaffolding, removal of rubbish or ‘making  good’ and is subject to the installers site survey.

 

 

 

[craig]

28 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

@craig

Your advice is probably needed here, I can't see the details too well on my phone.

Sorry having a BBQ with family today but I’ve had a brief look and I can understand the concerns. 
 

Your best bet is to speak to the install team/supplier raising concerns and if you have no luck speak to Fensa/Certass if they are registered and if you’re still not happy with response. Check if they are registered with the GGF and raise concerns with them.

[ClairedM]

4 minutes ago, ClairedM said:

Thank you. I will have a look at these standards.

Re contract - its vague and I didnt know to ask. I naively believed them. 

The contract says '

1. Installation (a)The estimated installation cost does not include skip hire, specialist lifting equipment, scaffolding, removal of rubbish or ‘making  good’ and is subject to the installers site survey.

 

 

 

I got them with https://www.ecotecwindows.com

 

[ClairedM]

2 minutes ago, craig said:

Sorry having a BBQ with family today but I’ve had a brief look and I can understand the concerns. 
 

Your best bet is to speak to the install team/supplier raising concerns and if you have no luck speak to Fensa/Certass if they are registered and if you’re still not happy with response. Check if they are registered with the GGF and raise concerns with them.

Thank you. Have a fab sunny day.

 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, craig said:

Sorry having a BBQ with family today

Going to rain then.

Thanks 

[alexo]

1 hour ago, ClairedM said:

Thank you. I will have a look at these standards.

Re contract - its vague and I didnt know to ask. I naively believed them. 

The contract says '

1. Installation (a)The estimated installation cost does not include skip hire, specialist lifting equipment, scaffolding, removal of rubbish or ‘making  good’ and is subject to the installers site survey.

 

 

 

That term is clear that their quoted installation cost does not include making good.  It would appear that unless this term contravenes a basic statutory right such as those laid out in the Consumer Rights Act or the GGF guidelines, or is classed as 'unfair' then you don't have a legal right to demand they do this (check with someone qualified legally on this though).  See page 29 of GGF guidelines and also CRA info:  https://www.lyonsdavidson.co.uk/consumer-rights-act/

 

I am not the most experienced renovator having only bought windows from 2 companies before, but even for the budget UPVC windows I bought the company did have in the terms and conditions that they would make good, and remove rubbish.  Removal of rubbish and a basic level of making good is usually quoted for in most work involving tradespeople as far as I know.  

 

Surely it is an industry standard that there is a basic level of making good and that they won't for example leave a gaping hole exposing your cavity wall?  But then again this industry seems to be full of cowboys who try to do the minimum possible for the maximum price it would seem. 

 

Sorry Ecotec but this is a poor level of service, even if legally you can do nothing about it.  Someone should have asked you if you wanted it finished off to a basic repair level and rubbish removed when they were doing the quote if it's not something they do as standard.

 

I would complain to them in writing by email, about how it would be reasonable to expect this to be included in the quote from a reputable company if there was 'reasonable care' paid to the job.  The consumer rights act requires tradespeople to apply 'reasonable care and skill'.  From the CRA:  'It is generally accepted that relevant to whether a person has met the standard of reasonable care and skill are industry standards or codes of practice'.  I am not sure what the industry standard is though, GGF guidelines seem to agree that it is dependent on the contract. 

 

If you have house insurance legal cover I recommend checking your rights on this with them before agreeing to sign off.  Or if not contact the Citizens advice bureau.

 

Edited June 2 by alexo

[alexo]

Looking at it, Ecotec are an Internorm 1st window partner.  So the Internorm customer care standard point 8 'All work will be done in a careful manner, clean and properly and will be carried out by a reliable and competent installation team' would apply to them.  

 

I would complain to Internorm that Ecotec aren't making removal of rubbish and a basic level of making good part of their Internorm contracts, and are therefore contravening point 8 that they are not leaving the job in a 'clean' state.  I would do this even if they agree to fix yours, just so that Internorm are aware of their practices.

[craig]

8 hours ago, ClairedM said:

Thank you. Have a fab sunny day.

 

Just to come back to this, having had a look at the pictures and comments, I’d be embarrassed to leave it like this and to give the alleged comments the MD supplied.

 

I understand comments about making good but they have a duty to repair and make good internally and externally on a replacement.

[ClairedM]

1 minute ago, craig said:

Just to come back to this, having had a look at the pictures and comments, I’d be embarrassed to leave it like this and to give the alleged comments the MD supplied.

 

I understand comments about making good but they have a duty to repair and make good internally and externally on a replacement.

Aye. Its a mess.

 

looking at the GGF good guideline it talks about remedial work prior to the windows being installed.

Whats the difference between remedial work and making good?

[craig]

One and the same.

[ClairedM]

@craig Is Ecotec duty covered in Internorm? or the GGF? or the Section 75 Consumers rights?.........The MD and fitter are coming tmw at 9am and I know they will try to worm out of it with weasel words.

 

Edited June 2 by ClairedM

[craig]

It’s something you’ll need to take up directly with them, but if you’re not happy tell them you aren’t but be reasonable and be prepared with points you want clarified and why they aren’t doing anything to rectify.

 

If you’re unsatisfied with their response, explain you’ll be taken matters further (Internorm, Fensa, GGF), document everything and remember.

If it isn’t in writing or recorded, it never happened.

[ClairedM]

12 minutes ago, craig said:

It’s something you’ll need to take up directly with them, but if you’re not happy tell them you aren’t but be reasonable and be prepared with points you want clarified and why they aren’t doing anything to rectify.

 

If you’re unsatisfied with their response, explain you’ll be taken matters further (Internorm, Fensa, GGF), document everything and remember.

If it isn’t in writing or recorded, it never happened.

Thanks Craig

 

[alexo]

40 minutes ago, ClairedM said:

Is Ecotec duty covered in Internorm? or the GGF? or the Section 75 Consumers rights?.........The MD and fitter are coming tmw at 9am and I know they will try to worm out of it with weasel words.

Ugh yes it is such a nightmare to have to decide how to take action on jobs like this under such a tight timescale.

 

The key thing on any consumer law complaint is you must voice your complaint in writing (by email) to the company as soon as reasonably possible.

 

I would strongly advise you to send an email detailing the points you take issue with early tomorrow morning at least an hour or so before they arrive to you so they have time to digest it.  That way, even if they try and weasel out of it, you can read off the email if needed, and they have a document of what your issues are to look at.

 

I would argue the main point (on the making good) is that your contract is contravening the Consumer Rights Act (2015), since it is a generally accepted industry standard that there is a duty to repair and make good to a basic level internally and externally on replacement window jobs, and it is not unreasonable for you to have expected this (despite their clause stating they will not make good, but don't highlight that).

 

They are also contravening the Building Regulations for England and Wales and GGF guidelines- see Annex B page 44  building regs regarding remedial work and also expectations regarding damp course and moisture penetration which you mentioned is a problem (there is a more updated document here which is keyword searchable: https://www.window-warehouse.co.uk/app/uploads/2022/02/20.3_A_Guide_to_Good_Practice_-_Installation_of_Replacement_Windows_and_Doors_April_2016.pdf )

 

They are definitely Internorm 1st window partners, and are not adhering to the Internorm customer care standard point 8 ‘All work will be done in a careful manner, clean and properly and will be carried out by a reliable and competent installation team’, and say you will be complaining directly to Internorm about this.

 

@craig other than the making good issue does the general fit look ok?

Edited June 2 by alexo

[craig]

2 minutes ago, alexo said:

other than the making good issue does the general fit look ok?

I have to at this point advise that is something they would need to take up with a professional inspection, due to the nature of how things may proceed. 

 

Whether GGF members or not, it’s very common for the guidelines set out in the GGF documents to be followed by pretty much all suppliers and often referred to even when not members.

 

These guidelines are pretty standard, also similar to European guidelines tbh.

[alexo]

2 minutes ago, craig said:

I have to at this point advise that is something they would need to take up with a professional inspection, due to the nature of how things may proceed. 

 

Whether GGF members or not, it’s very common for the guidelines set out in the GGF documents to be followed by pretty much all suppliers and often referred to even when not members.

 

These guidelines are pretty standard, also similar to European guidelines tbh.

Fair enough.  I have just realised that Annex B page 44 is actually the building regs for England and Wales.  So no weaselling out of those.

[alexo]

10 minutes ago, craig said:

I have to at this point advise that is something they would need to take up with a professional inspection, due to the nature of how things may proceed. 

 

Whether GGF members or not, it’s very common for the guidelines set out in the GGF documents to be followed by pretty much all suppliers and often referred to even when not members.

 

These guidelines are pretty standard, also similar to European guidelines tbh.

How does one go about getting a professional inspection in a case like this?  Is there an equivalent of an independent snagging team such as New Home Quality Control but for Internorm window installs?  Or are you referring to getting it checked by FENSA or certass? Or a rep from Internorm?  Asking for a friend.

[craig]

Fensa, if they are registered but you could also ask a reputable company or a 3rd party independent surveyor.

[Kelvin]

Do you have any pictures of what it all looked like before the installation?