Jamie rhys Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 Hi everyone looking for some advice if possible i wanted to know how important this step is on my shower tray installation guide (see photos) So far I’ve installed it by siliconing it onto a custom built wooden frame is this going to be fine or am I gonna experience issues in the future thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 Forgot to add some photos showing the frame that the tray has been set on I’ve got three support bars in the middle and then all the edges and sides have support also planning on using expanding foam on the cavatitys for extra support The base is attached to the floor using silicone and the tray is also attached to the base using silicone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twice round the block Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 So your not going to bed it down on a mortar mix then ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Definitely want to bed that - I used flexible tile adhesive on mine . Bedded to marine ply sheet which in turn was glued and screwed to battons . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeard Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Hmmm... so the tray is already fixed in. You do want to bed in a semi-dry mix of sand-cement as per the instructions you posted. My tray was not raised on a frame so I had to guess the height of the s/cem mix and luckily got it right. In your case you could just use a T-piece of wood/ply and push it in like a croupier shifting chips (no, not the edible ones). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 Yes the tray is already fixed just wanted to clarify I’m not doing the job myself I’m paying someone and I’ve notice this afterwards am I looking at facing serious issues with this in the future or will it be fine as I don’t think the tray can be removed now without starting again with the shower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 2 hours ago, Redbeard said: In your case you could just use a T-piece of wood/ply and push it in like a croupier shifting chips (no, not the edible ones). Do this for peace of mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeard Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jamie rhys said: am I looking at facing serious issues with this in the future or will it be fine as I don’t think the tray can be removed now without starting again with the shower Well, from what I can see from your pic the only bit which will be unsupported (ish) is round the waste, and you probably don't tap-dance there. You couldn't have filled completely with sand/cem anyway in case you ever need to work on the waste (from the room below). Having it encased in mortar would be a trifle inconvenient. I cannot be sure, but if you do your 'croupier' bit carefully I think you may be as OK as you can be. How not to 'croup too far' and bed in the waste? Perhaps measure carefully and jam in a piece of timber (not so tight as to lift the tray, but then you could trap it sideways between the exg battens) against which you can 'croup' (It's my verb and I will use it!!). Sorry! P.S: Did the fitter have those instructions? Edited May 12 by Redbeard P.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 2 hours ago, Pocster said: Do this for peace of mind I’ll be honest I have no understanding of what this means my knowledge is that of general DIY nothing like what I’m having done right now hence why I’m not doing the work 2 hours ago, Redbeard said: Well, from what I can see from your pic the only bit which will be unsupported (ish) is round the waste, and you probably don't tap-dance there. You couldn't have filled completely with sand/cem anyway in case you ever need to work on the waste (from the room below). Having it encased in mortar would be a trifle inconvenient. I cannot be sure, but if you do your 'croupier' bit carefully I think you may be as OK as you can be. How not to 'croup too far' and bed in the waste? Perhaps measure carefully and jam in a piece of timber (not so tight as to lift the tray, but then you could trap it sideways between the exg battens) against which you can 'croup' (It's my verb and I will use it!!). Sorry! P.S: Did the fitter have those instructions? Not sure what you mean by crouping either sorry the instructions did come with the shower tray however I’ll be honest I didn’t see him read them 🤦♂️ and I’ve only read them myself after he’s installed the tray as I assumed he knew what he was doing since we’ve had him do other work for us which has been perfect but now I’m concerned about things going wrong in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeard Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 OK - you may have to watch a James Bond film! The T-shaped thing that Roulette croupiers use to move the chips around the table (hence my invention of the verb 'to croup') can be replicated to push semi-dry sand/cement mix round instead of Roulette chips. It avoids your installer having to grow longer arms. I think @Pocster's reference to peace of mind to be gained from filling under the tray refers to the possibility of the tray cracking if it is simply 'hung' (as your pic shows) and not supported. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 57 minutes ago, Redbeard said: I think @Pocster's reference to peace of mind to be gained from filling under the tray refers to the possibility of the tray cracking if it is simply 'hung' (as your pic shows) and not supported. If in doubt “ fill it out “ 1 hour ago, Jamie rhys said: I’ll be honest I have no understanding of what this means my knowledge is that of general DIY nothing like what I’m having done right now hence why I’m not doing the work I’m exactly the same but I did it anyway . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Shower trays are normally bedded on mortar (or flexible tile adhesive for thin beds). I believe this is to reduce the risk of the tray cracking by providing distributed support. If your installer hasn't bedded the tray you have to wonder what sort of job he is doing elsewhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 (edited) I don’t think my installer is planning on doing any of these things that you are all mentioning from what I can gather his plans now are to just put some expanding foam in the cavity’s and then he’s going to cover up the wooden frame with flooring or trim I need to know what the likelihood is of having problems with this down the line is this something that 100% needs to be addressed or something that might never be an issue at the minute their appears to be no issues with the tray he installed it drains fine but it’s not been fully tested yet as he’s not siliconed things yet Edited May 12 by Jamie rhys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 (edited) This is the custom built frame he put in just so you can see the support but there was no plinth or anything the gaps are just hallow is the only issue that I might face is that the tray could crack or is there more issues I could face I need to know so I can go back to him and say why I’m not happy and why I’m concerned Edited May 12 by Jamie rhys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozza Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Well for starters the manufacturers warranty wont be valid. That appears to be a slimline tray ? I can only assume it’s been placed on a timber frame to make it easier to run the waste pipe above the floor boards ? If so that’s lazy work. I am not a plumber but did my parents bathroom and installed a slimline tray and lifted the flooring and waste pipe noticed the joists and laid 18mm ply and bedded the tray into that flat surface which is I’m sure the proper way to do that. why has the installer done it that way ? You’ve posted elsewhere regarding the dodgy screen support arm. Is your installer a professional plumber both these things are raising red flags for me I’m afraid. Sometimes waste pipes may need to run above the floor level, in which case there is no point in buying a slimline tray that’s why deep trays exist. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Bozza said: Well for starters the manufacturers warranty wont be valid. That appears to be a slimline tray ? I can only assume it’s been placed on a timber frame to make it easier to run the waste pipe above the floor boards ? If so that’s lazy work. I am not a plumber but did my parents bathroom and installed a slimline tray and lifted the flooring and waste pipe noticed the joists and laid 18mm ply and bedded the tray into that flat surface which is I’m sure the proper way to do that. why has the installer done it that way ? You’ve posted elsewhere regarding the dodgy screen support arm. Is your installer a professional plumber both these things are raising red flags for me I’m afraid. Sometimes waste pipes may need to run above the floor level, in which case there is no point in buying a slimline tray that’s why deep trays exist. I’m not sure if my guy is a plumber but is definitely a joiner he does advertise for bathrooms and kitchens we had him in to do doors and he did a good job and so we got him to quote us for our shower room we were happy with the price but as you can see we’re seeing issues now he did also install our downstairs bathroom which including fitting a new sink, toilet and towel radiator and we had no issues with that so we went ahead with the shower room he said the reason why he had to lift the tray up off the floor is their was a pipe from out boiler underneath the floor which would block the waste pipe for the shower hence why he built the custom frame the pipes in red are the ones that were blocking the waste pipe Edited May 12 by Jamie rhys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeard Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 The 'custom frame' is not a problem per se. However the instructions say it should be fully bedded in sand/cement. It should. I cannot, you cannot and he cannot guarantee that it will not crack if you have not followed the instructions for fitting provided by the manufacturer. I *think* there will be too much movement in squirty foam. I have never tried to make it load-bearing, but if you have doubts get or make a wooden box, squirt foam into the bottom then stand on it. If it gives at all it could give when you stand on the shower tray. Trying to measure by eye the gap on the LHS looks about 200mm. Are they equal? Is the bottom of the tray completely flat? If it sits fully on the bearers it *may* be OK, depending how thick it is and how much it will flex in that ?200mm? width, but if it isn't, as others have said, you would have no claim against the manuf'r as you have not followed their instructions. I would guess you could cut the end piece out carefully between each batten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 26 minutes ago, Redbeard said: The 'custom frame' is not a problem per se. However the instructions say it should be fully bedded in sand/cement. It should. I cannot, you cannot and he cannot guarantee that it will not crack if you have not followed the instructions for fitting provided by the manufacturer. I *think* there will be too much movement in squirty foam. I have never tried to make it load-bearing, but if you have doubts get or make a wooden box, squirt foam into the bottom then stand on it. If it gives at all it could give when you stand on the shower tray. Trying to measure by eye the gap on the LHS looks about 200mm. Are they equal? Is the bottom of the tray completely flat? If it sits fully on the bearers it *may* be OK, depending how thick it is and how much it will flex in that ?200mm? width, but if it isn't, as others have said, you would have no claim against the manuf'r as you have not followed their instructions. I would guess you could cut the end piece out carefully between each batten. Okay I can measure up the distance between the Battons later tonight for better information since it’s not been installed correctly as per the manufacturer instructions what would you suggest I do with my guy should I express that he’s installed not in line with the manufacturer instructions and ask him to put it right even though that might require him to rip out the tray and all the cladding or should I just say nothing and hope it doesn’t become a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 I notice that the shower tray guide also says you can use their universal leg guide https://images.victorianplumbing.co.uk/products/pack-of-6-legs-for-easy-plumb-shower-tray-panel-ntp001/instructions/screwlegs_enclosures_v2_fi.pdf but this was not done either so the warranty is still void 🤦🤦♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozza Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 From the pipework picture there appears to be room to reroute the pipe work closer to the middle joist thus allowing the correct low profile installation of the waste pipe & tray. But that would depend on what’s to the right and where the waste would run to. so either (a) it was impossible to reconfigure the pipe work or (b) it was possible but he either can’t do that level of plumbing or didn’t want to do that work and it’s easier to put it on a plinth but having decided to put it on a plinth, he’s decides to fabricate one out of softwood rather than a proper legs & plinth kit. I’m not a plumber nor a tradesman but fitted a low profile tray for my parents house and had obstructive pipe work underneath which though time consuming even I was able to reroute. If I had been unable to re route and had to raise the tray, there is no way I’d have done what he’s done. I’d have got the correct plinth & legs set and replaced the chipboard with marine ply for enhanced stability. id be asking him why he didn’t reroute the obstructive pipework, and why he didn’t utilise the correct plinth kit & legs. I can guess the true answer may be because it’s easier for him to do it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 13 Author Share Posted May 13 24 minutes ago, Bozza said: From the pipework picture there appears to be room to reroute the pipe work closer to the middle joist thus allowing the correct low profile installation of the waste pipe & tray. But that would depend on what’s to the right and where the waste would run to. so either (a) it was impossible to reconfigure the pipe work or (b) it was possible but he either can’t do that level of plumbing or didn’t want to do that work and it’s easier to put it on a plinth but having decided to put it on a plinth, he’s decides to fabricate one out of softwood rather than a proper legs & plinth kit. I’m not a plumber nor a tradesman but fitted a low profile tray for my parents house and had obstructive pipe work underneath which though time consuming even I was able to reroute. If I had been unable to re route and had to raise the tray, there is no way I’d have done what he’s done. I’d have got the correct plinth & legs set and replaced the chipboard with marine ply for enhanced stability. id be asking him why he didn’t reroute the obstructive pipework, and why he didn’t utilise the correct plinth kit & legs. I can guess the true answer may be because it’s easier for him to do it that way. From what I remember he said that the waste pipe was getting obstruction by the copper pipes which are for our boiler he said he didn’t wanna touch them pipes in case we then had any issues with our boiler in the future so he said he was going to raise the tray up on this wooden frame which we assumed was fine since I’ve never fitted a shower tray and don’t know what’s involved it’s only afterwards I’ve seen all this about laying a weak cement mix I get the feeling I’m going to have to tell him he needs to install this correctly as per the instructions which is going to be a flipping mess around since he’s already siliconed the shower tray to the wooden framed and the wall and has now put up and glued the cladding on extra photo of the waste pipe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozza Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 7 hours ago, Jamie rhys said: From what I remember he said that the waste pipe was getting obstruction by the copper pipes which are for our boiler he said he didn’t wanna touch them pipes in case we then had any issues with our boiler in the future so he said he was going to raise the tray up on this wooden frame which we assumed was fine since I’ve never fitted a shower tray and don’t know what’s involved it’s only afterwards I’ve seen all this about laying a weak cement mix I get the feeling I’m going to have to tell him he needs to install this correctly as per the instructions which is going to be a flipping mess around since he’s already siliconed the shower tray to the wooden framed and the wall and has now put up and glued the cladding on extra photo of the waste pipe You could leave it / chance it but at your own risk. there appear to be a gap between the tray and the timber on the right hand side. So it’s not even sitting on that. To place it on a plinth without using the correct plinth kit it would have been better to use ply sheeting on top of a frame thus creating a false & level floor. Then bedding it on that. Warranty would have been good. if he’s given a reason for not rerouting the plumbing “in case there’s a problem with the boiler” that sounds like a nonsense reason / excuse TBH. I bet he’s on a fixed price for the job. his solution is the cheapest and easiest for HIM. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie rhys Posted May 13 Author Share Posted May 13 Yeah so I think I’m going to have to speak with him and tell him he needs to put this right not gonna be a fun conversation and I’m sure as hell he’s not gonna be happy with it but it’s too much of a risk especially after getting confirmation from the manufacturer just not prepared to take this risk I would like to thank everyone who has helped me I really appreciate it and hopefully he does it right this time around otherwise I’ll end up back here 🤦♂️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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