phykell Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Hi, I applied for an LDC last year - it's taken until now for the LPA to get back to me with a refusal, stated as follows: Based on the available evidence, the LPA is not satisfied as a matter of fact and degree that the proposed building would be genuinely subordinate and reasonably required for purposes incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse. Accordingly, as a matter of fact and degree the proposals do not come within the terms of Class E of Part 1 of GPDO. The background is that I wanted to replace and resite my dilapidated two-bay garage with a three-bay garage but it was refused (I'd renovated the main dwelling and extended it 50%). I then said I'd use permitted development (turns out they had imposed limitations on my original plans which weren't correct but they never suggested the PD route either) and they advised me to seek an LDC which I did. I decided to create a three-bay garage and extend the outbuilding, as a whole, over an adjacent, disused swimming pool - nothing out of the ordinary, as both uses are within the the planning-specific principle of incidental use rather than ancillary use. My proposed outbuilding satisfies the usual PD requirements such as the maximum height, area within 50% curtilage, distance from boundaries, eaves height, etc. - they admitted all of this in the case officer's report but the LPA has essentially said (above) that my outbuilding will be too "big" (that's my summary) for what I want to do with it. To my mind, they're grasping at straws, if not being vexatious, but what's my next move? I've asked to speak to my local councillor in the meantime but should I appeal myself or should I appoint a solicitor, planning consultant or other specialist? Please note that I'm already appealing their decision on a balcony to the main dwelling as well. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Having taken my planning decision to appeal (and won) I found the process relatively painless and frankly easier than applying for planning. I have found the appeal officers more “practical” than planners and their office staff helpfull. So go for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phykell Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 (edited) 26 minutes ago, joe90 said: Having taken my planning decision to appeal (and won) I found the process relatively painless and frankly easier than applying for planning. I have found the appeal officers more “practical” than planners and their office staff helpfull. So go for it. Thanks - I'm going ahead with the balcony appeal and you're right, it does look OK but the reason for refusing the LDC is more complicated. I've met all the PD requirements - this one they're leveraging against me is something else entirely. As part of their justification, they've stated that they don't know how many people are resident (they know there's just two of us) as though that should have any bearing and they even go on to say that we've omitted details about the large shed we have in our garden (which is full to ther rafters of gardening and woodworking stuff already). They even ignored that I mentioned the garage would house my lawn tractor (with its trailer, it's longer than many cars!). They then go on to complain about the sun lounge area of the pool (the pool cover will be underneath that area along with pipework) as being something we could have in the main dwelling. My architect who managed the application, asked them if they needed any other information but they didn't bother and then they went five weeks after the decision date - it's been over three months. I'll get the balcony appeal done first so I can see what the process is but I'm already stuck on the three options it offers regarding the complexity of the planning - any idea what's best there? Do I go for the "complex" one? [Edit] I think it has to be "Written representations". The planning portal also recommends getting in touch with the planners and that appeals should be the last resort - is that worth it? It'd be great if I could clarify any points with them that they didn't ask me about in the first place Edited March 20 by phykell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 21 minutes ago, phykell said: recommends getting in touch with the planners and that appeals should be the last resort - is that worth it? The planners don't want appeals. They take lots of resources. If you start off by asking if you can discuss it, you will determine their attitude. Planning is objective but you may have different interpretations so it can be discussed. A further step can be to engage a planning consultant to present your argument. That way the council sees what you would say at appeal and may be convinced or prepared to compromise. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phykell Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 1 hour ago, saveasteading said: The planners don't want appeals. They take lots of resources. If you start off by asking if you can discuss it, you will determine their attitude. Planning is objective but you may have different interpretations so it can be discussed. A further step can be to engage a planning consultant to present your argument. That way the council sees what you would say at appeal and may be convinced or prepared to compromise. I did just speak to the planning inspectorate to ask their advice before going to appeal and they said much the same - that I could at least contact the case officer to see if any amendments or further explanation would help so I'm looking at that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Am I right in understanding from your explanation that it would be PD anyway and you're just making doubly sure with the LDC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Ha, my planning officer even told me if I went to appeal i would most likely win but was not going to compromise.planning consultant may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phykell Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 16 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said: Am I right in understanding from your explanation that it would be PD anyway and you're just making doubly sure with the LDC? Yes, but now they have a framework for enforcement if I was to proceed. I'm sure they're wrong - I just can't believe that both the case officer and her manager signed it off. I guess that's the issue with delegated reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phykell Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 24 minutes ago, joe90 said: Ha, my planning officer even told me if I went to appeal i would most likely win but was not going to compromise.planning consultant may help. The mind boggles - why would they refuse it if they believe it would win an appeal? It's just wasting time, effort and money and it's acting against the spirit of PD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 >>> Planning is objective My lot can use 20 different synonyms for 'too big' in the same paragraph without ever defining what 'too big' or 'acceptable size' is. And they will claim the sky is lime green at breakfast time, navy blue at lunchtime and barbie pink at dinner time without even acknowledging that they changed their mind, let alone explain how or why they changed their mind . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 9 minutes ago, phykell said: The mind boggles - why would they refuse it if they believe it would win an appeal? It's just wasting time, effort and money and it's acting against the spirit of PD. Which is why the appeal officer told them they were not abiding by their own policies, yes bonkers 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrymartin Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) Just bear in mind that the median time for determination of an appeal (written) at the moment is something like 37 weeks (may be different for different appeal types), and that's from the date they determine it is valid. My appeal took 12 weeks to get to that point, so it could be almost a year before I know the outcome. Talk to the planning officer first and ask what would need to be changed for them to approve another application. Depending on the type of application, you can resubmit another for free, and this doesn't stop you from appealing the first decision at the same time. This is what I have done. I resubmitted for free with information that addressed the reason for refusal (despite the planning officer telling me it would still be refused) and started an appeal against the first decision at the same time. Five weeks after resubmitting, it was refused again, but at least I didn't lose that five weeks by waiting for the second refusal before starting the appeal. Should the second application be successful, you can then just cancel the appeal. Still waiting on the outcome of my own appeal for Permission in Principle, but hopefully not too long now 🤞 Edited March 20 by garrymartin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 >>> Just bear in mind that the median time for determination of an appeal (written) at the moment is something like 37 weeks (may be different for different appeal types), and that's from the date they determine it is valid. My appeal took 12 weeks to get to that point, so it could be almost a year before I know the outcome. I also saw 12 weeks to 'validation' - which is how they fudge the stats I suppose. This site is suggesting 30 weeks on average from then, for a total of 42 weeks: https://appealfinder.co.uk/Planning-appeal-success-rates-and-timescales.n48.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 More stats here: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/planning-inspectorate-statistical-release-22-february-2024/planning-inspectorate-statistical-release-22-february-2024 See Annex B further down that page for householder appeals like the OP might have - in that case median is 18.1 weeks and validation on those is running at ~4 weeks for a total of 22 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandgmitchell Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 But also be aware that they seem to use different Inspectors for enforcement and LDC appeals. At least that's the reason given for the 60 odd weeks I am in so far on a fairly simple LDC appeal in relation to a residential property. At the stage of a complaint about the delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 52 minutes ago, phykell said: why would they refuse it if they believe it would win an appeal In my experience they decide in a professional manner according to their interpretation of policy. However their experience is that often the appeal officer will disagree, and reverse it, hence they may tell you that. I've had a refusal overturned at appeal on the grounds of 'what else will happen to this brownfield site?.' That was, therefore, not based on policy in any way and our own consultant was surprised to succeed. The appeals people in Bristol used to be the top of the profession. Now I fear it is delegated to the lowest bidding consultant who then likes a quick fix. I further fear that they are influenced hy central government to encourage development...but I have no proof. But I have been involved in a couple of cases where council refused permission to fit with local opinion and parking problems but it was permitted at appeal. Hence my cynical opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 So like planning and building regs….no consistency 🤷♂️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Is your LDC not a 'householder appeal'? A bit more info here by inspector: https://appealfinder.co.uk/Planning_Inspectors_Performance.p15.html and here by type of appeal: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phykell Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 18 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said: Is your LDC not a 'householder appeal'? I certainly hope so based on those figures 😎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phykell Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 1 hour ago, garrymartin said: Talk to the planning officer first and ask what would need to be changed for them to approve another application. Depending on the type of application, you can resubmit another for free, and this doesn't stop you from appealing the first decision at the same time. I've already started writing my "Refusal Mitigation" document 😎 As I'm re-reading it again, I can't help but wonder at why my garden shed and its double doors was brought into it, as though that should impact the outbuilding size - I can't park any cars in the shed and the lawn tractor takes up 75% of the length with its trailer. Then there's the lawn spreader, log splitter, it goes on. Time I just bought a bungalow somewhere. 😅 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 17 minutes ago, phykell said: you can resubmit another for free, and this doesn't stop you from appealing the first decision at the same time. Yes, a friendly local helpful planning consultant (free of charge) told me about this, so I applied for a fourth planning application that had the footprint and ground floor of what I wanted (but not upstairs) just so I could start on the footings and start building, meanwhile I appealed my original application (which had the upstairs that I wanted) and won that before the brickie got up to first floor level 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Just to say, that's strategy is smart, but it doesn't work if your LPA charges sizeable CIL as your later application then breaks the self-build exemption - v. handy for the LPA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 4 hours ago, phykell said: Accordingly, as a matter of fact and degree the proposals do not come within the terms of Class E of Part 1 of GPDO. Found this…. Part 1, Class E of the GPDO 1995 says that the provision, maintenance, improvement or other alteration of curtilage buildings with a ridged roof is permitted provided, among other things, the height of that building would not exceed 4m. also….. What is Class E in planning? What is Use Class E? Use Class E Planning is a commercial class generally covering shops, offices, gyms, restaurants, workshops and other types of commercial buildings. It broadly incorporates the previous A1, A2, A3, B1, and part of both D1 and D2. so are the council trying to say your going commercial ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 @phykell - I think too: planning consultant to demonstrate that you won't be bullied and try to reach some compromise ... if your LPA does compromises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 2 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said: demonstrate that you won't be bullied Ha, the last meeting I had with the planner in her office, I turned up in my pinstripe suit, briefcase in hand, TOLD her I was chairing the meeting, we had four points she was refusing on and I presented documents proving her stance was invalid (and she conceded) the other two she stood her ground so I told her I was going to appeal (as she had already told me I would probably win) and left. Never saw her again 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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