Tracy3012 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Good morning, I am currently in the midst of trying to sell a house. The buyers survey has brought up the closed cell loft insulation spray foam in the roof space. We have only owned the house 11 years but it was done in 1998. the buyers mortgage lender is refusing a mortgage based on this foam. The timbers can’t be assessed with the stuff on but it’s going to cost £6000 to take off. We are in a catch 22 situation. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceverge Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Are you sure it's closed cell? It's much more expensive than open cell so would be used sparingly. Any pics? For your own satisfaction you could just shove a screwdriver through the foam into the rafter and see if it's rotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Unfortunately a lot of people are being caught out by this. My dad had this problem while selling a house and it proved futile to try to argue with buyers mortgage lender. In his situation he just had to stump up the money to have the stuff removed and re-insulated with something else. I haven't really kept up to date with what is happening in the market more recently with this so maybe a wider Google might help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avendit Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Is it mostly between rafters but with some overspray? Or over the rafters to a decent depth? If its just in between plus spillage, read on. If the timbers are visible the mortgage company should relent (some definitely will). Check with the lender first, but one suggestion would be don't remove all of it, just the overspray onto the rafters. Big knife like a bread knife and saw it off down each rafter in turn, no more than a few hours work hopefully. 11 years of no trouble show that the roof was structurally sound (you can use closed cell for strengthening failing buildings, which is partly why it has such a bad rep as it gets/has been used for this inappropriately quite often. If only the cowboy spray foam people would use open cell the whole spray foam industry would be in a much better place :(. (We have open cell spray foam so have to deal with the misinformation problems quite often in conversation. Fortunately prior to having the spray done we already had a lifetime mortgage deal so have not had to deal with this first hand.) If you have to remove, will the EPC also need redone and the deal re-negotiated as a result? I'd say you are taking value out of the house if you remove the insulation :(. You may need another buyer at that stage :(. Only other option I can see is coming to some risk management agreement with the surveyor and lender. They are probably worried about damp - if you can find a way of testing or monitoring for that and agree it will be professionally done yearly (or something) they may lend? Then offer the new owners 10 years worth of those fees - may be cheaper than the other options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonC Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 I don't have anything solid to add. In late 2022 I contacted the working group tasked to create a pathway for the industry to provide guidelines for new spray foam insulation and to deal with surveying existing installation. At that time their work was in progress, but I am aware they have since published in March 2023 some guidance which is found from the URLs embedded within "Industry guidance" section in this government note: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/spray-foam-insulation-and-mortgages/. Useful to read and hope it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avendit Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 https://www.property-care.org/write/MediaUploads/Technical Documents/SprayedFoamInsulationInspectionProtocol_March2023.pdf this is the direct link to what you need. Any details left by the previous owners that would let you build up the 'pack' mentioned in page 9 onwards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayc89 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Not helpful to the OP, but I don't understand the rationale behind spray foaming between the rafters. Putting the moisture risk to one side, a cold loft still needs ventilation, so unless you plug up the eaves (even worse idea) cold air will get behind the spray foam anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy3012 Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 Update:- mortgage lender rescinded their offer to our buyer based on the foam. we agreed at our own cost (£6000) to have it removed by a specialist company. They came out and surveyed the job and provided a date for work to begin. Sent one person to start taking off the some bulk. Our house is a 1928 house and they discovered there isn’t any felt under the foam so halted work and refused to carry on stating the ice blaster would wreck our tiles. Their contract promised like for like replacements on any broken tiles. The work that was undertaken revealed some of the batons and there is no problem with the wood so far exposed. At this current time, we cannot find anyone that will come and remove the foam and our house is about to lose the sale. All because a surveyor refused to properly assess the roof as part of the buyers survey once he saw the insulation. broken hearted and exhausted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayc89 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 6 minutes ago, Tracy3012 said: Update:- mortgage lender rescinded their offer to our buyer based on the foam. we agreed at our own cost (£6000) to have it removed by a specialist company. They came out and surveyed the job and provided a date for work to begin. Sent one person to start taking off the some bulk. Our house is a 1928 house and they discovered there isn’t any felt under the foam so halted work and refused to carry on stating the ice blaster would wreck our tiles. Their contract promised like for like replacements on any broken tiles. The work that was undertaken revealed some of the batons and there is no problem with the wood so far exposed. At this current time, we cannot find anyone that will come and remove the foam and our house is about to lose the sale. All because a surveyor refused to properly assess the roof as part of the buyers survey once he saw the insulation. broken hearted and exhausted Can hardly blame the surveyor, on this occasion. They can't see the battens because they're hidden by the foam so they have no idea what condition they're in. Although the same could be said for any insulation, foam is known to cause problems in some circumstances (typically when the roof's been leaking for a while, no one knows about it, because of the foam, and the water has had no where to go but into the battens and ultimately rot them) Whilst it's a slog of a job, removing it is DIYable. You should be able to pick large chunks off relatively easily and then use a wire brush to do the rest. I'd certainly give it a go if I could save £6,000! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy3012 Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 You are now telling me everything I already know about the foam and the problems it causes. However a roofing professional has told us that the battens he can see now exposed are sound and no signs of problems caused by the foam. Something the surveyor could have possibly detected himself had he followed some of the guidelines for surveyors when coming across closed cell insulation. can I ask you Jayc89 have you got any professional expertise or experience or are you just speculating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy3012 Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 On 19/01/2024 at 00:49, Avendit said: https://www.property-care.org/write/MediaUploads/Technical Documents/SprayedFoamInsulationInspectionProtocol_March2023.pdf this is the direct link to what you need. Any details left by the previous owners that would let you build up the 'pack' mentioned in page 9 onwards? All the paperwork we had was sent across to our solicitor. This included a receipt for the work done in 1998 and apparently there was a warranty that unfortunately had expired very recently. We have had bad luck in every step of the way with this stuff. And we didn’t even do it 🤦♀️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avendit Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Such a shame as it sounds like you have a perfectly effective install and you are stuck between a rock and hard place. TBH, I would patch up the hole that has been made and find some new buyers. The the opportunity of the exposure you have to take some damp readings (damp measuring devices available in B&Q for not much) and try and build up that info pack as best as you can retrospectively. Perhaps its possible to find in advance which mortgage lenders will support you and just inform viewers? Change plan and extend this place rather than move? (sorry, clutching at straws) Seal the loft access and get another surveyor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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