New Build Monitoring Health & Safety

[Internet Know How]

Hey everyone,

 

My Architect has pointed out in his fees:

 

Principle Designer – this service, to monitor Health & Safety and provide a H&S file is required by law. All design consultants and sub-contractors should design the property so
that it can be constructed and maintained safely and any unusual risks identified so that appropriate precautions can be taken. I attach a document outlining the clients duties
under the regulations. We can undertake this role at an additional fee will be required at 0.25% of the contract sum or a maximum fee of £6,000 + VAT

 

(ME) I guess this is something I can manage myself and ensure all the required H&S on site is in place as its my residential home I am demolishing and rebuilding? 

(ARCHITECT) You can, we will need to produce a H&S document up to design stage and you can take over from there as Principle Designer and Principle Contractor and Client - you will be wearing a lot of hats.  I will send you the CDM guides from www.hse.gov.uk/construction

 

On my self build, I am the client and I will personally manage without a principal contractor. I will bring in all contractors such as groundworks, bricklayers, and general construction myself, rather than have one main contractor as their fee will blow my budget.

 

So the principal designer is supposed to manage the construction phases of a project, and generally liaises with the client. Well, I want to be both of these and dont see any reason to pay someone else to manage that relationship on my behalf.

 

From a H&S perspective, has anyone managed this as apparently I have to have a H&S site manual up to date should any authority turn or request one? My Arc will do it up to design stage then its passed over to me. Is there much else to add in there? I have read the manuals but it's all common sense stuff to be honest

 

However, do you think its best to appoint a Principal designer and is it worth paying out the above for this type of role to save me the time and hassle? Just seems expensive, but this is a 5 bed detached house 450-500sqm.

 

Thanks

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterW]

Search CDM 2015 Regulations on the forum - it has been done to death and you’re not required to follow the full Regs as a private client. 
 

On the other hand if you are taking on a £6-900k build then I take it you’re not doing the work yourself so you may want to look at what the main contractor will be doing and see where any cross over occurs. 

[nod]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Search CDM 2015 Regulations on the forum - it has been done to death and you’re not required to follow the full Regs as a private client. 
 

On the other hand if you are taking on a £6-900k build then I take it you’re not doing the work yourself so you may want to look at what the main contractor will be doing and see where any cross over occurs. 

Plus one 

 

I’ve just finished work on a build of four 20 ish men One loo No running water in the loo 

Lot of HSE signs 

 

Just another way of your Architecht ramping his fee up 

[Internet Know How]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Search CDM 2015 Regulations on the forum - it has been done to death and you’re not required to follow the full Regs as a private client. 
 

On the other hand if you are taking on a £6-900k build then I take it you’re not doing the work yourself so you may want to look at what the main contractor will be doing and see where any cross over occurs. 

I have just read through the CMD 2015 for private client and I get what you are saying here. I will search the forum too on this further. I wont have 1 main contractor, but will bring in groundworks, then bricklayers, then all the other trades thereafter once the roof trusses are on

[Internet Know How]

22 hours ago, nod said:

Plus one 

 

I’ve just finished work on a build of four 20 ish men One loo No running water in the loo 

Lot of HSE signs 

 

Just another way of your Architecht ramping his fee up 

Yeah I guess it is. I am already paying around £30k all in for his fees so I cant pay anymore.

[nod]

1 minute ago, Internet Know How said:

Yeah I guess it is. I am already paying around £30k all in for his fees so I cant pay anymore.

Wow

We paid out 3k in fees last time 

My wife’s hoping to make a saving on that for the next one 

[Internet Know How]

1 minute ago, nod said:

Wow

We paid out 3k in fees last time 

My wife’s hoping to make a saving on that for the next one 

 

I did think it was expensive to be honest. Its based on 600SQM design. 

first plan: £13k

building Reg detailed plan: £12k

£3.5K monitoring and support over the build inc visits

 

Should really be half of that all in, but maybe I am naive.

 

[PeterW]

That’s cheap for 600sqm for all those elements. It’s not a 75sqm developers box you’re building. 
 

Have you got PP..? And have you got a fully costed budget for the build as £1k/sqm for a finished house to £1m spec, with a basement and specialist foundations such as piling is probably 50% out on its estimate I would expect. 
 

Once you factor in fees, mortgage interest and CIL, you will be more likely in the £1700-£2000/sqm territory unless you are going to get very hands on yourself. 

[Bored Shopper]

Being at a final stage of the build right now, my honest opinion is that you only need Architect for the design stage, and then probably for the 1st 1/3 of the build with the regular visits and control - until shell & core is erected and steels placed (particularly if you've never done a build before, as was our case). From then on, you can do very well without one (make sure you have really good relationship with your main builder). We moved our architectural technician from a contract fee onto an "as and when" hourly arrangement (to be on hand if we had some difficult questions to sort out), and saved us £££. Particularly given that our man turned out to be less than knowledgeable about specific building regulations so eventually I was much more diligent in these aspects than he would have been (if I've done that from the start, perhaps could have even more £££ and headache, but I'm working full time etc etc. Now I know).

[nod]

We were smaller than that at 280m2 2.5 k for Architecht 

500 quid for SE and foundation drawings 

[Internet Know How]

23 minutes ago, nod said:

We were smaller than that at 280m2 2.5 k for Architecht 

500 quid for SE and foundation drawings 

wow 2.5k thats really good on their fee

[Internet Know How]

39 minutes ago, Bored Shopper said:

Being at a final stage of the build right now, my honest opinion is that you only need Architect for the design stage, and then probably for the 1st 1/3 of the build with the regular visits and control - until shell & core is erected and steels placed (particularly if you've never done a build before, as was our case). From then on, you can do very well without one (make sure you have really good relationship with your main builder). We moved our architectural technician from a contract fee onto an "as and when" hourly arrangement (to be on hand if we had some difficult questions to sort out), and saved us £££. Particularly given that our man turned out to be less than knowledgeable about specific building regulations so eventually I was much more diligent in these aspects than he would have been (if I've done that from the start, perhaps could have even more £££ and headache, but I'm working full time etc etc. Now I know).

I will bear that in mind, thanks! Never done ground up development but I have done full renovation on 400sqm properties

[Internet Know How]

52 minutes ago, PeterW said:

That’s cheap for 600sqm for all those elements. It’s not a 75sqm developers box you’re building. 
 

Have you got PP..? And have you got a fully costed budget for the build as £1k/sqm for a finished house to £1m spec, with a basement and specialist foundations such as piling is probably 50% out on its estimate I would expect. 
 

Once you factor in fees, mortgage interest and CIL, you will be more likely in the £1700-£2000/sqm territory unless you are going to get very hands on yourself. 

No planning permission yet, just at the costing stage. I have done a high level cost breakdown and yeah the mortgage interest is going to  be around 80k I reckon. Here are my high level costs...obviously misses out some items but its not that far off. If I am bringing in my own trades every step of the way rather than a main contractor I hope to do this for £1-1200/sqm. This does not include Architects fees or other surveys.

 

People who come in with silly prices will not get on the job. For example...someone quoted me £18k, then another 21k to demolish. Got it for £12k which is more reasonable given there making easy 7k over 2 weeks on demolition. I Have a bricklayer £80/sqm for laying brick, £25/sqm for block. Once I start with my trade account openings too from the local suppliers I will be able to make good savings. 

 

Any main contractor will try and make £700/sqm on me which is about £400k, and more than I will make when I come to sell the place. It just makes sense for me to manage bringing in the trades. 

 

Demolish	£12,000
Groundworks	£50,000
House Brick (24000 qty)	£15,000
House brick mortar	£3,500
House Brick labour	£32,000
Block (internal) 7000 block 700 sqm	£10,000
Block mortar	3000
insulation (underfloor and cavity)	4000
skirt & Arc	£3,500
Central Heating & Boiler	20,000
Underfloor heating supply and fit	4,000
Re-Wiring Inc Alarm	15,000
Windows & Doors (external)	£15,000
Kitchen	£50,000
5 x Ensuites furniture and fit	30000
Front Door	2000
Internal doors	4000
Roof trusses & labour	40000
Roof slate	10000
Roof materials lead, plast	4000
Roof labour	10000
Plasterboard	3000
Plastering	10000
Exterior landscaping	40000
front gates and railings	10000
Front wall	10000
Interior painting and decorating	8000
bannister	20000
Joiner Interior	30000
Coving	3000
coving fitting	3000
Total	£474,000

Edited September 6, 2020 by Internet Know How

[Internet Know How]

51 minutes ago, PeterW said:

That’s cheap for 600sqm for all those elements. It’s not a 75sqm developers box you’re building. 
 

Have you got PP..? And have you got a fully costed budget for the build as £1k/sqm for a finished house to £1m spec, with a basement and specialist foundations such as piling is probably 50% out on its estimate I would expect. 
 

Once you factor in fees, mortgage interest and CIL, you will be more likely in the £1700-£2000/sqm territory unless you are going to get very hands on yourself. 

Not planning to pile, but post dig out will be a full concrete slab and walls. If I dont dig out, I will need to pile, and given I can clear the 1000 tonne of sand free, it makes sense to spend a few grand digging out with the machines. 2 weeks worth of machine and the hole will be there

[Bored Shopper]

5 minutes ago, Internet Know How said:

 

insulation (underfloor and cavity)	4000
Windows & Doors (external)	£15,000
Kitchen	£50,000

IMO, for a 600qsm house windows are severely underbudgeted. We've got 10x simple windows and large bifolds and 4x veluxes, cost us £25k (house is c. 200sqm).

Kitchen - probably overbudgeted unless it is mega-size and includes all the appliances.

Insulation, we found, cost us much more than planned due to 15% of waste.

Have you planned for waste removal? Costs a small fortune (unless you are scattering soil and rubble in your own vast backyard)

[nod]

That’s a good budget 

We fully intend to keep the budget below a £1000m2 on our second build 

 

Good luck 

It looks like a great project 

[nod]

13 minutes ago, Internet Know How said:

Not planning to pile, but post dig out will be a full concrete slab and walls. If I dont dig out, I will need to pile, and given I can clear the 1000 tonne of sand free, it makes sense to spend a few grand digging out with the machines. 2 weeks worth of machine and the hole will be there

One thing I did notice 

Plastering and boarding is part of our business 

13 k Is that just labour ?

[PeterW]

I see no service connections in those estimates..? Is the assumption you are reusing the existing ones...?

 

£4K for UFH is wildly out - for 200sqm of floor space, assuming you will need it both floors. 
 

There is no internal floors or floor joinery, no stud walls ..? Or is that wrapped up in your roof joinery (which looks expensive for trusses)

 

Insulation - assuming you’re going bare building regs ..? That is probably 50% light if not more to get even the basics. UFH needs insulation of a decent depth - how are you planning on heating each floor..?

 

Windows - basic uPVC from that ..? No Bifolds or other large glazing ..??

 

Blockwork labour is missing - unless it is in the £32k which seems light for such a big area. 
 

No costs for steels, lintels or structural elements ..?

Plastering is massively underestimated. There are close on to 600sqm of ceilings, 950sqm of walls by my basic calcs. 
 

Electrics - I would double that as you are looking at more than a pendant light in each room. 
 

 

 

[PeterW]

4 minutes ago, nod said:

That’s a good budget 

We fully intend to keep the budget below a £1000m2 on our second build 

 

But you did (and will do..??) 40-50% of the work yourself ..?? £1k/sqm only works with decent levels of input as a full self build. 

[Internet Know How]

6 minutes ago, Bored Shopper said:

IMO, for a 600qsm house windows are severely underbudgeted. We've got 10x simple windows and large bifolds and 4x veluxes, cost us £25k (house is c. 200sqm).

Kitchen - probably overbudgeted unless it is mega-size and includes all the appliances.

Insulation, we found, cost us much more than planned due to 15% of waste.

Have you planned for waste removal? Costs a small fortune (unless you are scattering soil and rubble in your own vast backyard)

Depending on what type of windows I go for, then yeah I could easily double this. Its 450SQM ish above ground, the rest below, or I can go 520SQM ground up with no basement. Really, I want to have 200sqm footprint over all floors. My own property is about 400SQM and UPVC windows cost £10,000 plus fitting. Had silly prices of £40/window to fit, with some small transoms, so I had someone else come in and fit them in a week. 

 

Change UPVC to alluminium then I would propably be at that £25k cost. I will amend my windows to double on the plan anyway though as I am likely to be short on estimates here

 

Not factored in waste....good point. Probably another £5k or so I guess

[Internet Know How]

10 minutes ago, Bored Shopper said:

IMO, for a 600qsm house windows are severely underbudgeted. We've got 10x simple windows and large bifolds and 4x veluxes, cost us £25k (house is c. 200sqm).

Kitchen - probably overbudgeted unless it is mega-size and includes all the appliances.

Insulation, we found, cost us much more than planned due to 15% of waste.

Have you planned for waste removal? Costs a small fortune (unless you are scattering soil and rubble in your own vast backyard)

Kitchen is overpriced yeah, but just basing it on what I got for £50k on my own, which I could come in 10k less easily and get a lovely kitchen. 

[Internet Know How]

10 minutes ago, nod said:

One thing I did notice 

Plastering and boarding is part of our business 

13 k Is that just labour ?

Plastering labour estimated at £10000 and another £3000 for plasterboard. I have a couple of guys who work on about £220/day for 2 men and they are good. That being said, it only gives 45 days, so I could easily be underestimating that by £5k. 

 

I worked out that cost on what they did boarding every room and plastering walls/ceilings in my 400sqm house.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Internet Know How

[Internet Know How]

42 minutes ago, PeterW said:

I see no service connections in those estimates..? Is the assumption you are reusing the existing ones...?

Plan is to reuse yes but I will add in a few grand for this 

 

£4K for UFH is wildly out - for 200sqm of floor space, assuming you will need it both floors. 

for UFH I previously used wundafloor for 138sqm and it was £1200 for all the parts. Although I installed the pipes and fitted the manifold to the wall, the connection to the main boiler cost me about £300 quid. Ground floor only for UFH, and then all floors will have radiators. Worth running a house of this size off a main unvented cylinder.

 

There is no internal floors or floor joinery, no stud walls ..? Or is that wrapped up in your roof joinery (which looks expensive for trusses)

30k for interior joinery is everything included. Roof trusses does seem expensive and I overpriced that as I had no idea. So assuming this is overpriced and my internal timber is underpriced I am hoping the 2 will level out somewhat

 

Insulation - assuming you’re going bare building regs ..? That is probably 50% light if not more to get even the basics. UFH needs insulation of a decent depth - how are you planning on heating each floor..?

Maybe yes, I have not done the full house before

 

 

Windows - basic uPVC from that ..? No Bifolds or other large glazing ..??

I will have some large bifolds at the rear, so I expect them to be expensive as I paif £1500 for a 2m UPVC bifold a few years back

 

Blockwork labour is missing - unless it is in the £32k which seems light for such a big area. 

Good spot, I have added in £17,500 as its 700SQM all internal block work as an estimate.
 

No costs for steels, lintels or structural elements ..?

I didnt add this in because I had not yet seen any plans. I could add another £10k here to cover me

Plastering is massively underestimated. There are close on to 600sqm of ceilings, 950sqm of walls by my basic calcs. 

I guess so depending on who is doing the job. I will add on another 10k just to cover me

 

Electrics - I would double that as you are looking at more than a pendant light in each room. 

30k for electrics is way too much. My 6 bed house was wired for about £10 all in plus alarm which cost about £300. They also cabled for the GJD system too but that was never fitted in the end. Anyone quoting those types of prices will not get the job unfortunately. I say £15000 labour is plenty....and most of the time its a couple of young lads running cables, then one main guy connecting up to mains and testing.
 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Internet Know How

[PeterW]

£15k labour on electrics - where are all the other items such as CU, Cables etc ..?

 

For a UVC to service 5 en-suites you will need 500 litres minimum. If you are going gas then a 40kW boiler may be your only option to keep up with it. 
 

I think the two things you need to do are a SAP calc and understand the CIL liability. You can’t sell for 3 years otherwise they will ask for the CIL payment back, same with VAT reclaim, you will need to show it as your primary residence. As CIL can be £50-80/sqm, depending on the current property on the land you could easily be looking at £30-40k liability. 

[Internet Know How]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

£15k labour on electrics - where are all the other items such as CU, Cables etc ..?

I am hoping to have the labour in for £10k and £5k max on materials. 

 

For a UVC to service 5 en-suites you will need 500 litres minimum. If you are going gas then a 40kW boiler may be your only option to keep up with it. 

Yes going gas, so probably about £1k for the UVC and another £1500 for the 40KW boiler plus other parts and fittings. The parts and even copper lengths will come £5k or less, the rest is labour...the most expensive part.
 

I think the two things you need to do are a SAP calc and understand the CIL liability. You can’t sell for 3 years otherwise they will ask for the CIL payment back, same with VAT reclaim, you will need to show it as your primary residence. As CIL can be £50-80/sqm, depending on the current property on the land you could easily be looking at £30-40k liability. 

My Architect said Design energy ratings will be required and an assessment of the potential energy efficiency of the building to inform the technical design of the building. Said they will issue an EPC certificate on completion. We will obtain quotes but would budget the fee at £1,000 + Vat. Said It is required post planning, and he would need the design SAP calculation for building regs and the EPC and water calc on completion. 

 

I didnt know about the CIL liability. I have options here. I can either rent it out once complete, or live in it and rent my current residential out. I need to research CIL and what it means developing on my plot. Never heard of the council charging for that here on a single dwelling development, but I am a little inexperienced here.