FM2015

Which ICF did you use?

Although I appreciate that this is a largely self build forum and ICF is predominantly advertised as a self build product, there are are a number of benefits achievable through using an experienced contractor for ICF works. The main one, and especially pertinent to this thread, is the relationship. A contractor will have long term relationships in place which aren't necessarily based on "sell sell sell". My main point is that everyone has a bad customer experience story from self building but that shouldn't be counted against the product. In our experience, ICF distributors offer different levels of service dependent on location and personnel. It does hold the industry back. Putting a professional between yourself and the manufacturer is a safety net. Try ringing up ideal standard about a bath. You'll get more joy from the supplier more often than not.

So you don't have any evidence of your treble costs? We have a QS partner but this isn't worth bothering them about. Essentially you've got to build a wall for less than £100/M2 to compete with the OP's wall. Can't be done.

By that rationale, 100m2 of complicated wall is the same price as 100m2 of simple wall. With ICF, 100m2 of 150mm core would be different from 100m2 of 200mm core. Simply not the case. I've already shown that the labour can be more for just the blockwork than ICF and haven't mentioned the weather. Factor in the labour of membranes and insulation and you probably have a 50% premium on the labour, minimum. I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I'm saying each job is different and we try and stay away from broad brush figures. With the figures that would we use and the approach that we take, we are broadly competitive and in no way close to double or treble the alternative. The moot point is quality and performance of the end unit. ICF converts will point to structural airtightness over membranes, and how so many stages are achieved in one product. I think if you have been quoted double prices for ICF, you need to go elsewhere. If it's what you've heard doing the rounds, it's a falsehood.

What finish? What steel spec? How many corners? How many levels? What performance level? Access? Where is it? Define normal build? Stick or masonry? I have never hidden that I work in the industry and know full well that I could give you a meterage rate for a notional ICF build which would bare no relevance to the real world. Locally, in the last 6 months, we have had clients quoted £2.30/4" block labour only and £3. That in itself is higher labour rates than ICF. Add materials, insulation, cavity details, dpc, windows etc. The only true comparison is a rate inclusive of labour. I tell you what, you price up the OP's build in an alternative and I'll get it done in ICF and we'll see. Proper BoQ style, cards on the table. I'll plant a tree for every 10% price difference in your favour. Although I know that I can't plant half a tree.

As with all things, warranty, regulation and manufacture all provide guidelines/stipulations and then there is the hierarchy to consider. Regulation and warranty both trump the manufacturer. @Dave Jones finished shell meterage prices are a bit of a misnomer. Generally speaking, to get to exactly the same state, the cost will not be dissimilar. I could provide a rate for a complicated ICF build in Enfield and someone could have a price for a simple stick build in Preston. Even the same building would have different costs in those areas.

These numbers don't stack up! Single digit percentage premium on price for a far superior, longer lasting product. As per my earlier comment, if a house has 3, professionally fitted bathrooms and a professionally fitted kitchen to a medium spec, the client will spend more on these than the shell. All four will probably be changed within 15 years. You need a shell that will last that long. You can build a shell for less, agreed, and ICF doesn't suit everyone, but saying it is at least double the cost for negligible performance gain is poppycock.

102 or 152 surely? It would be useful to give more build details to make the 20k/30k relevant to other users. Have you built this? One thing that I find nuts, no matter what the build system is, is that you can spend 30% on a veneer. Everyone seems to chase the structure down to lowest sum only to "splash the cash" on finishes. Previously had a client argue about £1000 (about 2%) before spending 67k(!!) on a rotating bath tub.

@saveasteading you live in a 100 year old timber frame house? I'd always assume anything built in 1920 was better than it's 2020 equivalent. Not always true but we cut a lot of corners now. Timber is much lower quality product nowadays. I have nothing against timber frame. How old was the roof on the Notre Dame before it burned down? No steel or concrete in that. I also know about the struggles to find quality timber for it's rebuild.

And it's a fair point. Although EPS manufacturing is actually done with a waste byproduct so you could argue it is better to make EPS than not make EPS

Only if an engineer says so. There are a couple of products out there peddling this "truth". Ultimately, if an engineer says it needs rebar, it needs rebar. As far as sustainability is concerned. Saveasteading is right about the end of life options for an ICF build but bare in mind that 1, the life of the ICF build is at least twice that of a stick build, if not four times; 2, tree farming is one of the least sustainable farming practices on the planet and 3, an ICF done correctly will need less maintenance throughout our it's life.

Exactly.

Simple, what are sap assessments costing people? I know exactly what games you can play with a mathematical model. I'm just interested in what people are paying for the pleasure.

It's a poorly phrased question, I guess. What I am getting at is that a collaborative SAP can inform design and yield project savings. A cheap and cheerful provides one answer. A more involved process provides a real world solution. The use of standard values, "book" values and manufacturer specific values etc all change the results. Further, not all ICF manufacturers can provide full datasets. I see a number of sources saying as built is pointless and is just a sales benefit and due process. Understandable but it still has a cost and it is these costs that I am interested in.

Not all architects undertake SAP, and those that do often show SAP costs separately. I'm interested in the range of those costs An assessor with ICF experience can produce a very different result to an assessor with no ICF experience. So I'm also interested in people's experience in this regard.