zoothorn

Aha! Crikey I was confused before.. Ok status is Im waiting for reply from my head office nice woman. Have put the different mfr buffer idea, tentatively to her. I'll mention Grant. Grateful to y'all, Zoot

I think Ive been getting confused with my grant, & Grant too.. which I must now think, is a mfr? Thanks Zh

Hi chaps, hugely grateful for these recent replies. I've put the Q to my nice Vaillant woman, of possibly a slimmer but taller buffer (1200x300? I asked if they did one?).. or.. my very last gasp idea to put her way, of using a different mfr buffer. Which if this above fails, I'll ask. If the installer kicks up a fuss & refuses another mfr's buffer, then Im stuffed. Back to square 1. Thanks, Zoot

Hi Hugh. Hugely grateful for this. Even on page 2, with the diagram, my head still aches trying to understand the basics though (eg it suggests indoors, a fan moves the compressed [water or air?] around.. & my head hits a brick wall). A fridge, in my world & most people's too, isn't some super-simple device like an oven is fir example. It's next-level design. Personally I think it needs a prior-level explanation, for people who haven't studied engineering frankly: likely 95% of customers. Nevertheless I might be able to brave the buffer/ extra heat sutuation page. But I don't expect to understand that either.

Bravo. Thanks alot for this pinpoint post. I'll even email this example to my nice woman @ Vaillant. Zh

@PeterW is the ARotherm plus 10kw, a 'monoblock'? I couldn't quite understand the significance of your mentioning water outside bit.. but my eyes lit up with the higher flow temp. Maybe, just maybe they chose this partly because I had mentioned even in my new build rooms, it was impossible to get them warm, using my current 'split' system, unless I ramped up the flow temp (+ some other upping of a level to max) which THEY themselves told me how to do as a niggle I had -paling into insignificance vs my overnight cupboard noise- which was a frustration at the ashp rad performance. This performance niggle, I hear on phone moan-ins even on radio4. So many people think as I do, their performance is nigh on hopeless. UNLESS of course, you have a super-scandi-built-home (my term) to contain the paltry heat emitted. Most UK homes don't fit this category, so this whole ashp venture/ shift IMHO, is so poorly thought out, & also hoodwinking UK customers (even ones grateful to get one via a grant, despite a protracted intrusive noise "battle" with a mfr..) that they're a good idea for their home. The cost now to run them too, apparently, is huge too: 50% of the moan-in calls I hear on R4 are this. Thanks. I'll email my nice woman @Vaillant whose reinstated the offer to me (we agree we're both stuck at this buffer 'hurdle' is the situation) if the monoblock is this one you refer to. Thanks, Zoot

I'll need a day to comprehend just these last two paragraphs. They just read double-dutch to me. Read these 3x now, yet still cannot understand the relationship between an additional heater & a tank. I judt don't think Im going to get it ProDave, even if you used stop motion stuffed animals, lego buffer whatnots, & fully slowed it down for the fully retarded. Thanks, Zoot

THIS much, ProDave, I do know... because it is the very source of my woes/ my battle with Vaillant/ because the unit that houses the pump to drive the water around during this satanic 11pm-7.30am frost cycle... was placed.. 1.5m away from a bed, & which was so loud & contiuous, it disturbed sleep in the adjacent bedroom & heard clearly in every corner of the house. THIS is the same cycle, which luckily with your different mfr unit, you are nothing whatsoever similarly disturbed by. Because. Yours isn't faulty. Mine is/ was. Zh

@AliG why is there 105 litres of water discrepency, between a system that has a heater, to one that hasn't? I cannot equate a huge volume of water, to a heater. The two things seem alien ti each other. But you say they're inter-dependent. I have absolutely no idea what this additional heater's design principle is. Additional? Surely if there's some water in a CH system, it is heated by a heater. What on god's earth then, is all this about an --extra-- heater, sometimes there but sometimes not ?? And how does this bizarre extra heater thing, relate to a huge fridge sized vessel to hold water? It's like someone saying a car 'oh well if it has an extra combustion engine, you need to tow a trailer on the back'. I'm sorry what did you just say, I have a what & so I need a what??? Two totally unrelatable things, but somehow inherrantly dependent on each other. It doesn't compute. With these pathetic sniping posts in between trying to read your info.. I honestly cannot cope anymore. Appreciated. Zoot

AliG. I've just tried, three times, to read your post here.. to make sense of it.. in order to ask what you suggest. I haven't got a clue how to even understand this. If I were to read out your post, to them for example, the answer... would be incomprehensible. I could conceivably only record it on a dictaphone/ type it out in a post here. But that is getting ludicrous. The backuo heater. Its like an alien being I have no conception of what it is, where it is, now, or in the future, whether inside another unit, attatched to it.. Im this stumped, just by twi words: backup heater. Its just far too complicated. To you it's simple. To me it makes my head ache trying to think what X could possibly mean, look like, be. I just can't cope, apologies. Im absolutely exhausted. Zh

Hi GW. Well this is one angle I hadn't thought of. Great. That being asking the if I can pay, for an entirely different mfr buffer, of the same size they insist.. & go shopping for a slimmer one. And go around here evaluating where the heck this could go. At least if slimmer, I can possibly find one spot without ruining my cottage. Cant be the cupboard as its likely not tall enough. But they'll counter this saying they cannot fit other mfr's equipment, or your guarantee is shot doing so, or simply their fitter says no.

I don't have UFH though. @AliG you are very kind to try explaining all this. To redact it & think how I could understand it. But I just don't, barely a word of any of it. Even the 'fridge running backwards' which is the pg1 analogy give to me outside my home to explain in very basic terms how an ashp works.. is, 3 years later, incomprehensible to me. I try & try to imagine what this simplest idea could be. Backwards? Backwards? No idea on gods earth what even this could mean. Like my mum driving her car analogy, I don't think I -need- to know, how an ashp works.. let alone what on earth this tank is for. Let alone why one system has it & it's replacement doesn't. I just need help with how I tackle Vaillant to either: reduce its size, or d without it. If this means needing engineering degrees.. then Im fkd. I do like to know how something works though, especially if I have to live with the bloody thing seemingly waling up, doing things, when it wants. I hate not knowing -why- it's just come on for 5 minutes at random the during the day. It took me 2 winters of insanity to find the reason why it does the overnight thing ( which at the very least, I WILL have resigned to being outside & away from my bedroom: although this doesn't mean as a certainty that I won't still hear it: the design if this ting is so bad I have no confidence even it being outside). Very frustrating to hear the thing even now, suddenly go on for 5 minutes. Why. Why has it just done that? I ask myself. I have no idea. Drives me a bit bonkers, just this (daytime, not that loud, but just why should it be doing anything, whatsoever, at 10.55am, in August?? My god how I loathe this thing). Thanks, anyway. I think Ive exhausted myself & everyone too trying to help. Apologies. I have my last last gasp idea (my own) put to Vaillant: to turn off my main room rads, & them install a smaller 8kw ashp monoblock. Of course they'll refuse it, but 2% chance is better than 0%. Zoot

Urgh good point. No mains gas, no. Damn I thought that was my ticket out.

Understood, I think. Actually I just had the call by my nice woman in head office, right now. Urgh. Bang in the middle of the thread. I proposed the idea of a smaller system & promising to turn off my main room rads in compensation. She is putting this idea to the Renewables dept: obviously only validated if it has a smaller buffer. ALSO she briefly skipped over the idea of a BOILER option instead. S S sorry what did you say just then? I asked. Well, she dipped ino the idea of a conventional system, as a replacement instead (I think assuming this had been out to me as an option -it has never been- once they'd relented & agreed NOT FIT/ TO BE REPLACED FOC last August. Well well. A boiler/ conventional CH system possible option??Another avenue to explore?? She is also putting this idea across to the Renewables dept. So 2 new avenues to explore. I with a smaller buffer tank, but t'other... *no damn buffer at all, *nor any indoor hydraulic unit. Please tell me at least this * * is so chaps. Thanks Zoot

@AliG thanks so much for thst. Im still struggling to under the purpose of the buffer. Even resding your post above, 3x. So I still can't comprehend the reasoning for one in the proposed system, & conversely the reasoning not to have one currently. I would if the 10kw figure was different. But it's the same. I don't think I have the engineering mental capacity to decipher explanations (I can only do engineering basic logic). Tbh I just don't think I -should be expected to as a customer- either.

I'll await AliG's response (or anyone else's) to my idea of promising to turn off/ not use 3 rads. Failing that it seems I'll just have to continue my own begging agenda to try getting them to reduce the size of this damn thing, or consider the only additional siting idea that's been suggested.. building some exterior housing for it. Thanks. Zoot

NO ProDave. No. I took video of it, sent to engineers, they know well the noise it makes IS WRONG/ SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT. This has been determined by them. Concluded by them. It has & still does, stumped even the head UK engineer here with his best no.2. Ive outlined this in #1. Don't please now on pg5 say you don't believe it's faulty when I've explained time & again VAILLANT THEMSELVES SAY IT IS. For crying out loud. What is this anti-me agenda you're riding along with?!

Hi GW. Thanks, & I am somewhat reassured it may be ok. But it's size is still the overriding issue. The only issue. I've explained why putting it (tbh I don't think a fitter has enough room anyway) in this bedroom cupboard ruins part of my house: my only storage is here: currently I squash xyz abc around & behind this wretched noisy (FAULTY) unit box. I have nowhere else for storage. A bigger tank, fills that space entirely. Imust have a smaller one. If the house heat loss calcs determine the size of the system (10 kw is a known figure: sureky this is the only -figure- of any relevance anyway).. then could I not propose this: My main sittingroom is stone cold. Literally. 2 big asho rads in here do -nothing- as they cannot be expected to combat the huge cold. So they are wasted, being on. If I were to say to them " I promise to not put 2 big rads on" (also I have a spare bedroom with a rad that seems daft to have on if 95% of year it's vacant).. could I not ask fir a SMALLER system. Maybe 7kw if we have reduced the rad number/ reduced the overall water volume, by switching 3 off. ?? Is this avenue viable do you think?? IE if the chaps here say the bigger the system the more likely a buffer needed.. then I just need to aim for a smaller system. Which will either have a smaller buffer, or, none at all. Thanks Zoot

Sell a system, that has been deemed faulty/ not fit for purpose/ that 8 engineers couldn't fix/ deemed to be decomissioned. Eh?? Plud the fact it seems fir some inexplicable reason, you think this faulty system.... wasn't faulty at all, so much so you (& everyone else) could quite happily have lived with it- that it's just me that can't!! I'm dumbfounded by this. You refuse now to believe, that my current system, is even faulty. To fit some convenient narrative that -I- am at fault, instead. Astonishing. I really didn't expect you to just jump in with the sniping pack ProDave. But such is human nature, I guess you just felt compelled to join in. Gaggle/ pack/ it's so predictable. Zoot

Bar the idea of housing it outside, or in loft, haven't been given any advice ST. Theories only on why possibly this tank is being proposed.. isn't too helpful tbh. I need absolute clarity as to why there is none now but one proposed. Then I -may- be in a better position to challenge the decision: either to reduce it's huge size, or go without it. I think it boils down to whether there might have been someone here who -knows well the differences- between 'split' ashp's & monoblock ashp's..... as this wording is the only difference I know between the two 10kw systems. To words that mean little to the average customer. Do I need to know what exactly has been 'split' to dial a temp in, run a hot tap? No. Does my mum know how a thermostat tagged to her car engine block works, to press pedals/ turn wheels & drive her car? No. She is not expected to know. She doesn't need to know. Injection. Its written in her car! Dies sge know even what is being injected, where? FFS even I don't!!!! Zoot

I cannot stand this pack sniping at me, just started, now snowballing. The usuals appearances now from under their bridge with a snidy 1 liner. If you can't help, just don't post. Simple. Go away, & expend your need for sniping somewhere else please. Thank you, Zh

I'll say it. Their storage heaters -still- belt out heat at 3am, flat out, which is impossible for me to comprehend as a design. I cannot for the life of me work them out. I do a thread, yiu guys say that one's broken if it's doing that. I inform my folks, who spend £1.5k on two new storage heaters following this BH hub advice that the heater is kaput. Another had identical symptoms. A year later I find the new ones... do exactly this nonsensical on hot at 3 am thing. I ask on here, perplexed. "Oh they're meant to do that, that's normal". £1500 to my broke old folks, is a huge ammount of money- wasted. There- I'll answer for you. Ok?

Sorry this makes no sense to me. I've said this too: The installer has no knowledge that I have used the prior system 'wrong' (this alone is infuriating: I have no option but turn it off to sleep!!).. no knowledge other than the system is defective & to be replaced. The new installer is A) not the original installer. B ) has no knowledge of the noise complaints, history of the old system: I asked him & he was 'meh.. I'm just evaluating the new system, all I know is old was is defective & a different yet similar sized one to be fitted'. So essentially he gas come to a new house, & doing his usual job of evaluating where the units will go. Whilst talking with me, the homeowner. It seems now folks are clutching at straws, scrambling for a conjectured reason why a buffer has been proposed when one is absent now. It simply now feels like everyone is siding with Vaillant/ the fitter, & siding against me. Typical of forums- a pack forms. Single out the weakest type instinctive thing. Bind together the pack. I should've just asked: can anyone who definitively knows the answer, answer the question? If not, perhaps best not give a personal theory.. because it adds to stress, as I feel inclined to answer the post for being rude to ignore it.

Ok that's rational. But they do not know that I run it not as it's designed to be run. I had no option but turn the wretched thing ALL off, bigass red plastic husge switch, in order to sleep in my own home... they only know this. They do not know I turn off spare bedroom rad because I live alone here. I've never told them this. So, it's a rational assumption thst they know how I run it.. but it's not true. The fitter had no knowledge other than I ran it how it should be run. And he made this buffer addition decision, at very last minute, after his site visit, him considering some aspect or other not privvy to me. So a buffer has some function. But why I don't have one now, is still not known. If the hydraulic unit -was- working correctly, which the fitter would assume once he installed it, why didn't he make a similar buffer addition decision-?? It leads me to think it's entirely a subjective installer's decision, maybe it serves some 'safe addition' water related function.. which isn't perhaps ESSENTIAL. I'm just mulling this along rational thinking, & as no-one can answer why mine has none/ why an exact sized replacement does. How else can I think??

I trust you guys far more than I do Vaillant Renewables, but none of you have a Vaillant ashp. Your ashp hyraulic unit, every one of you, is not made by Vaillant, & behaves silently enough to not be intrusive. None of you have a Vaillant hydraulic unit. Nor do any of you have a Vaillant buffer tank. So with respect how can I take any reassurance from you saying your (non-Valiant) buffer is silent?