zoothorn

Hi Onoff, sorry to hear you're struggling a bit there.. we both lucky only a few more weeks until it -should- be spring proper. Yes. You see I can make 1 effective room, 2 even. Despite having 1 old stone wall acting like a fridge on end. And with you guys' help this is in fact what I did. I have 1 room which retains this "low output" HP rad heat: my new build bedroom. The weirdness still affects it though: dark moisture-wet peripheries, of course on the stone end wall, but nowt to worry about if the room's warm. So you see now, I tramp down AM from this newbuild bedroom warm room (which I ventilate for 1/2 the day as soon as I leave it).. down into sittingroom, which thrn feels completely different. Then in into kitchen/ bathroom, which feel a step further on in coldness, & whichever adjacent room I flit between, I -have- to turn on a fan heater. Or I'd be uncomfortably cold. The sittingroom being big, can't be affected by the small fan heater: meaning I just vacate it until bearing an hour or two upon an leccy blanket + hottie, for my need to listen to my records/ vinyl. So I have the IDEAL comparison. New build room, to original old stone big room, to oldbuild 80's extension. The 80's oldbuild extension (despite the 1" of celotex you suggested adding in 1 kitchen wall, a perfectly good idea of course) is actually, worse than the old sittingroom. How.. considering no draughts (none anywhere- blocked all up within months of buying the place p, bc I could sense the cold even in july & thought "that must, surely be draughts- no, it wasn't so simple as that unfortunately).... how is it so bad, despite no draughts. Well this is the sticking point it seems. My theory, vs kind chsps' ideas on here (that the HP can be effective in the 3 problem rooms: I say a HP just can't be). I'm doing their tests now, so the results (of sorts) in 3 weeks. From this compsrison, I can tell the fundamental factor, is structure & how it can retain heat, outputting from a HP system with it's 'medium at best' temp rads. Thanks, Zoot

It's hard work because folks refuse to believe it when I say this house is simply just one if those rare anomalies, one you just cannot seem to heat. If I sit on a sofa, & whacking a 9.5kW stove on FULL PELT for 4 solid hours, galloping through 2 huge baskets of logs, & I'm sat 1m away from it... if after 4 hours, my legs, nose, back especially is still feeling cold.. then this house is one of those rare infuriating anomalies. It's hard work, to convince anyone of this. It's hard work too, because the threads entitled "my battle with Vaillant", & nothing to do with how to run a HP (in this infuriatingly cold cottage). But folks wanted to help, convinced I was just being an idiot. Then I was oblidged ti answer the replies. And more join in. Now, at this point grateful as I am for the replies (quite unlike your suggestion here) I am finding it exhausting to read all, to try understanding many. Until I have so many, that I can only b3 SELECTIVE in reply. Basically I'm spent. Then it's hard work for others, who now feel that I've ignored them. It's hard work then for me, to put up with a fair few mildly insulting & condescending replies. Which then gather pace & others feel oblidged to join a small psck. Yes, it's hard work indeed. But I don't suppose it is for you though. Zoot Another regular member said they knew of occasional examples like this.

Hi Rick, but if my rads furthest away from the new internal box wall thing (IE near cylinder), are equally as hot to the touch, as the rads nearest to it.. that suggests the balance is ok. Or if it's the outside HP which creates the water which runs in the rads (instead of the internal box near the cylinder), then I can safely say, that the furthermost rads to -this- are equally as hot to the touch as rads near to it. Evidently then the balance is fine. The install was only 6 weeks ago too- I wouldn't expect the rads to gave 'drifted' out in such a short time, nor that the installer (Vaillant affiliated & vg by all accounts too) wouldn't have balanced them upon install- if that is, it was one of the jobs he was meant to do. He asked me at this juncture, to bleed the rads: so I know he was doing some form of setting up, after the actual installation job had been completed. Thanks, Zoot Thanks Zoot

Of course you will ST. So helpful on this thread. So kind with the replies.

Hi Rick, as I said in PM, I'm not understanding the principle of buying the thermometre ( I mean the children on here will laugh saying I don't understand what a thermometer is dummy or something pathetic of course). By this I mean: I'm not understanding why I would need to buy this gadget. I mean the system makes the water heat, then circulates it in within the rads., which are connected up lets just say "in parallel" within the same single circuit. So how any one's internal temp would or should be any different to any other, is beyond me (& therfore why the need for the thermometer). If you're suggesting I buy it, in order to ID any rad that needs bleeding..?? the answer is a resolute no. Because I bled them all myself. I expelled air in each one that needed it, upon installation, at the installer's request. Half the rads needed it until water bled out/ tightened it up with the key. And the other half bled out immediately without the need to expel air. So I know, the rads are recently all bled, & assuming their valves are correctly set to be open, they will surely (& to me just plain logically) all therefore have the same rad temperature water, circulating within them. The only difference one rad to the next, being the size: a bigger rad with more surface area will emit more heat of course. So, surely all I need to do, is find out what temp the system's circulating rad water is. If it's 70*C = too high, so I turn it down. I then just set it to 'medium' (someone on here might be decent enough to tell me a 'good efficient figure') & as I hear on R4 programme right now, Evan Davies etc, that 45*C will mean the system runs 3x more efficiently than 70*C.. I mean surely I just need to dial that figure in, & knowing my rads are bled, the system is set up. As I said in my PM though I can't understand why this seemingly absolutely pg 1 aspect of the sytem's rad water circulating temperature, hasn't really been part of the discussion. If at all. And furthermore I can't understand having searched anywhere & everywhere within the controller just to see what my current circulating rad water temp figure is, let alone where to set it better should it need changing.. it's nowhere to be found. Thanks, Zoot

Right I'm not playing anymore. Well until I do an update that is in 2 months, & in the meantime FYI I've set the HP up to: Setback 16*C (including night goddamit). Required Temp 18*C. 3x blocks of Timer period: 7:30-9:00 then 12:30-14:00 then 17:30-21:00. So on -far more- continually than I had it before. So far.. I cannot tell a fart of difference (& even saw my breath as per usual in the bathroom yesterday, 11*C outside temp). But I shall give it time. -- Secondly. I remember a situation which is the BEST example of this OTT wet climate atmosphere thing, which you all ridicule & so certain simply cannot be true.. One job my builder did (along with the 2021 extention, thankfully well-built) was put in a new back door & frame. Bought from Howdens in town, with a basic hardwood frame. Now, my builder was reknown as the best around, most experienced. My extension proof enough. Door opened outwards (giving me more room in my back hall), & all fine. Swung open great. Nice solid heavy feel, quality hinges & handle. I painted 3x with Sadolin stuff he recommended. 4x coats on the top edge, & bottom edge. 1 month later the door was sticking, a week on, it was jammed shut. He trimmed a bit off edge, I repainted, rehung. I saw a good gap now. 6mm min. 6 weeks later, door was jammed solid again. Builder called, now a bit 'welsh angry' forced it open. Jigged it. Door was ok. 2 months on, again, it had jammed solid. Builder refunded me for the whole door job! Very decent of him, as it wasn't his fault. I took it off, trimmed another 5mm, rehung it, now at max possible trimming area. I noticed it had also got a slight bow in it too. It opened ok. 2 weeks ago, first open since winter proper, jammed solid again. It hasn't jammed solid, each time, due to any dampmess within the cottage/ in the immediate area: IE the door back entrance area to my (cold yes, but perfectly dry) 80's exention. I have never had any damp issues in the extension. Not the kitchen, bathroom, the small hall, nor any evident in the loft area above. It is quite simply, a dry extension. Now. The cause of the door doing this. You will list a,b,c as possible/ probable causes. But you'd do so as excuses, rather than accept the blindingly obvious: the local particularly & unusually damp atmospheric conditions, seeped into the fabric of the door, swelling it. A ludicrous ammount. Not only width, but warped it. As a consequence, it's NOW useless/ junk/ needs replacing again. It was a decent-quality door when new, but within a very short timeframe has --become-- junk. Because it has changed, structurally. It has been ruined. No iffs, no buts. That is an absolute fact. This was HOWDENS. And treated especially well, especially carefully by me 1) because it it was my door, & B) because I was aware of the damp (local area air) facet. I knew it existed. I did my utmost to keep it at bay, keep itmout of the structure of this door, but even this was a fruitless exercise. THAT is how pervasive, it is. How ruinous. How it leeches into every aspect of your life here. Without respite almost 365 days a year you feel it. This is absolute proof of it. This & the always-wet feeling limp post, I collect each day, from outside my front door/ that I collect from outside my dwelling........ are categorical proof. Whatever you guys say. You guys, some migjt be builders, most let's say very experienced amateurs/ &/or semi-pro standard. Without any question far above my level of knowledge. But look, so was my builder, when he said "oh no, I wouldn't want to do that/ no sorry I'm not happy with that idea" & refused the job of pouring 2 large concrete foundation 'pads' for my log cabin's base. I got a local guy to do the job. And with help from BH, the job was done, cabin is a success. So, the builder 65 yrs old, hugely experienced & known as the best around (& with it a premium in his quotes), who knows the area like back of his hand, whose ancestors lived in my very cottage 1855 or so... he was wrong. And you guys (not up to his standard)... were correct. And so by the same token, I am correct with regards to this strange & indescribable local wet air facet, & you naysayers who say it doesn't exist.... you all of you who club together singing from the same denial-hymnsheet on it.. are purely & simply wrong. That is all. Update in 2 months. Thank you, Zoot

NOOOOOOOOOO!! I'm not having this. I didn't expect anyone to understand. It's so much easier isn't it, to just say 'oh yes, it's the house'. Utterly, completely lazy. Which is the opposite of the effort you've put in trying to help. So completely at odds. Since those two months, Ive not had one second of any breathing problem, lung problem, ache/ pain, no more colds or sinus anything what so fkn ever. I've been more healthy overall, here, than anywhere I've lived too.. most likely the sea air & general cleanliness of it (particulates etc). Sea air. It was a physiological thing- my body pretty bloody obviously & simply attuned to the conditions in this local vicinity here. Topography wise, it was chalk & cheese to the cotswolds I was in before. Near the sea, inland west of the sea, 600m high up in a wooded steep-side valley, tucked down between. This topography has some bearing on the climate I speak of. The unusual climate which WAS the cause & the only fkn cause, of the 2-month 'condition' my body attuned to. Facts. I don't give a hoot for numbers. These are plain facts. The LOCALE, not the cottage. The AREA, not the dwelling. The VICINITY, not this house. I cannot be any clearer. This is not up for argument either. I will not rise to it anymore. This stacking up is grating now, so I shall take a break. I will do as you suggest, bar the overnight rads on at 16*C, & report back in 2 months. Carry on sniping everyone, gathering your 'likes' together at my expense. I will have nothing to do with reading it/ ignored (Yourself Rick not included/ this is not aimed at you). Thanks, Zoot

I've learnt more about bullying too. Not that I didn't know threads on forums can so easily become nothing but a witch-hunt against 1 person. By bored timewasters. The same old 'lets post a sniping post to get a few likes' bullshit. To firm up your group against 1 person. One thing I'd never do on a forum, is join in with a group stacking up against the 1 sole person just 'for likes'. Fkn pathetic frankly.

@-rick- Ok so you are certain, that the pain/ache I had in my chest IE in my lungs for the 1st 2 months of being here (being in this vicinity/ this area/ not lessening once I went outside of the cottage into the surrounding area, no it wasn't linked to 'cottage damp'/ it remained stuck firm in the vicinity of the property, & furthermore -subsided- within these 2 months, twice, corresponding to when I travelled out of the area back to england to visit my folks, & returned back with a heavy ache within hours of returning to the vicinity)... was bollocks too then, yes? To reitterate. It did not present itself one iota worse, whilst inside the cottage: it was stalwart the same whether I was outside or inside, whether I was walking in a forested estate 5m away, or whether I was in the kitchen. The same during a whole day in town 8m away, as it was later that evening at home having returned a good few hours prior. It didn't present itself one iota worse in the old main shell part of the cottage, vs any of the perfectly structurally dry (if badly built) newer addition rooms. It only presented itself as different, once I left the area, not only a difference.. but the pain./ ache abating, completely. All merely in my imagination, yes? Please, just answer this.

Rick, it is not bollocks. Assumptions, are the only thing that is bollocks, frankly. One thing that you cannot avoid, is opening the front door. This introduces the damp air I talk about. You cannot say that is bollocks. Furthermore, it is strongly suggested, to ventilate rooms alot. Especially so, ironically to me it seems, in wetter areas. Imagine a holiday cottage, out in a heavily wooded steeply hilly locale: this example, the home owner woukd be almost press ganged into ventilating regularly. Here, the homeowner is in a Catch22. He has a holiday cottage innevitably the door opening-closing many times a day, & he ventilates the windows. He by nature, introduces the very damp air, in big quantities. He cannot avoid it. This is me. This is identical to me. I do ventilate regularly, & nop in-out the door to my workshop countless times a day, but by the same token, know I'm introducing the very air which dehumidifiers expend huge energy, to dry. It is an absurd, infuriating situation. But one we (not just me- we all know this phenomenon as a fact of living here) know we cannot avoid. Because we live in this locale. This vicinity. This local area. Put a huge great Simpsons dome over the vicinity, dehumidify the air, then...... we have YOUR vicinity. Then our CH systems work normally. Then my clothes never always feel wet putting them on (always- even summer this never chsnges). My clothes armpits don't rot away in some bizarre turbo'd way Ive never, ever known before in my life. Then when I have a hottie on it wouldn't leave sone weird wet sweat patch on my clothes when I take it away. I could go on with eg after eg till the cows come home. Then our post is nice & crisp (this is the clearest example, simplest to explain). Like you just -expect- yours to be. We just contend with it. And I know whatever anyone on here says, that it is a MAIN cause of WHY it is so difficult to just feel 'normally dry' here, let alone warm the air which inevitably comes, in, from outside! That is not bollocks, that is absolute fact.

Dillsue. I mentioned the local atmosphere. I specifically didn't mention the air within my dwelling. I made absolutely sure to distinguish between.. ..but STILL an assumption is made. That I am talking about the air within the house. No. I am talking about an aspect many know around here. I used the word locale. The words local atmosphere. All lost, to assumptions. What is effectively being said by yourself here, is that once I warm my house up, the US mail aluminium postbox ((those tight fitting door ones, without any water ingress, or I would get a consistent patch on m6 envelopes- no- no rainwater, whatsoever, is getting into it, or I'd know having had it 9 years where it is)).. what your saying, is once I heat my house, the letters in this postbox -located on a timber post, outside, my front door- will then be normal-dry. Will be crisp & normal. Won't have the saggy limp 'damp' feeling to them, as they do. As you can appreciate this is absurd. I was talking about a local aspect, one to which a very competent house-renovator said (who looked intelligent dare I say the retired lecturer type), who said, of this strange damp atmosphere.. & his word.. "microclimate". Why I include this phenomenon, aspect, whatever the hell it is, is because I know there is a causal LINK between IT & the near impossibility of heating stone cottages, in this locale. When Bear Grylls hauls his needy ex-celeb out of yet another watercourse, the 1st thing he says/ dies, is "take off your wet clothes". Because there is a causal link between wet, & cold. What I am suggesting here, is the same. That the air, is unusually damp. It is not in debate. It just is. Here. In this locale (IE in the local area). Unless I have 5x dehumidifiers on full pelt all through the cottage 8 months of the year, and THEN THEN THEN put the HP on as is suggested... it will .. not.. work.. here. I promise you this to be true. I cannot nor is it practical to run 5x dehumidifiers on here near permanently, to dry the air, to THEN make the environment right for -any- CH system become useable. This is what I'm saying, constantly, but here in more detail. This is what I'm up against. The pain/ awful debilitating ache I had to get used to over 2 months, physiologically, had zero to do, specifically, with my cottage as a source of it, that you assume. No. It had everything to do with the local area air. You can say bllx all you want. But that is the truth. A more detailed reasoning, for my firm knowledge, of why it is so unusually hard, to heat cottages of this nature, around my vicinity. I told about a friend over the hill, same grumble. Others we all grumble about it, just a caveat of 'living in paradise' as it often looks to be around here etc. I told of a lecturer looking chap (he was obviously intelligent from the chats we have) using the word that -I- also have used before, "microclimate". It is not bllx. I am therefore suggesting, that it massively affects how any CH system, can perform, in my cottage. Of a permanent reason why it's so impossible here. Zoot

ProDave, as I'm finally getting to grips with this stupid complicated menu/ setup controller, thanks to the patient members like Sharpener & Rick (clearly with no intention of pack mentality).. I can indeed now start to think of doing a trial run. I at the least owe doing so, to Rick & Sharpener (& firey welsh Nick.. when he's not on his period). But I aint having my rads on above 10*C overnight!! That is the only caveat! Ok? Thanks for your input. Zoot

People have been drawn because that is the nature of a forum GW. That's the nature of if there's one small guy on his own.. & 2 members are in discussion with him/ her, then by human nature you side with them. I never moaned about the HP not heating this place --THAT was the assumption-- which led to 1, then 2, then as I state happens above, a gathering 'consensus'. All in good faith, & all I try to discuss with. But the point I was making --a moan about old stone cottages like this, which I KNOW one reason the prior owner SOLD it, was DUE TO the cold here-- was completely lost. Gone. I then had to entertain effectively a new thread. Which I had no intention of (cos I knew it had no fkn chance- & still am adamant it can't: & why shouldn't I be too??) That being effectively "How to use the HP to heat a tricky stone cttg". You here, are merely replying as one of the pack, the consensus, to firm up the consensus, to pick at me. Like (anti) social media can be so easily used as a caveat to bully, forums can so easily be used to pick at a sole member. That, is the nature, of your reply, right here. Zoot

No Nick you don't. It is a fact that the 2 crap extension rooms (both attatched onto one slate stone end of the main old 4 walls comprising the sittingroom)........ have in each room, 1 small rad. It is a fact that they couldn't fit anything bigger, & a fact that a small rad, in an uninsulated room, will not be sufficient to heat it. The 2 rooms I frequent most. YOU have decent sized rads in -your- two most frequently used rooms. You say you have a stone house, but with your building knowledge, I'd be my bottom dollar you at the least have some insulation under your floors. And I'd bet too, thst your house is made from a different stone than slate & mud mortar: my old folks cottage was sandstone, easily weathered on the outside, why? Because it's far softer. This stone type is far easier at retaining heat. Chalk & cheese, in fact chalk is close to what it was. I bet too that you aren't next to a water course (my crap extention foundations are 5m away & 3m above a big gushing stream), which I think contributes cold ingress to the structure. I bet too your stone house isn't whacked down upon clay, metres away from this small river, too. If you came here & spent a bit of time.. you would understand. It reminds me of when I said my local climate-atmosphere was strangley, unusually damp. No it isn't was the replies, put a humidity meter on, see? (So why is all my paper/ post for eg in it's perfectly dry letterbox limp & damp feeling? Why do my stoves get covered in rust, my metal wok does same in 2minutes flat, why did I have a physical pain/ ache for first 2 months here? Why the abundance of green mould? "You don't have this, you don't have that".. "you didn't have any pain [it was in your head].. your area isn't different". Yes. It is. YES...... my cottage IS unusually cold. It is a fact. Small rads.... I mean are you gonna argue "they aren't too small"?? Zoot

@-rick-I don't want the controller in the sittingroom only cos it's such a cold room. Surely too, you don't want to fix one to a silly-cold surface -ie put your hand on any old wall & it's super cold all year round. IE surely this will give an excessively low reading if sensor is inside the placcy controller box. I do have orig vertical timber beams in sittingroom, but I'll not ruin any running a white cable & placcy box on. The black 720, with a black cable, might have been possible (black beams you see). What I might consider doing as a trial though, being March now, & in theory only 2 cold months left.. is set it up (if I can) more or less how you suggest, bite the bullet re.bills. But not 21*C & 18*C setback. 'My trial' would be to show you, how the 3 primary rooms here cannot possibly be warmed up by anything less than 2 jet engines; even the 'get the structure up to temp over time' idea I know isn't possible in this slate stone shell sat on clay, with uninsulated crap brick extension tagged on it's North end with 2 small rads in. 'Your trial' would be to show me that it can! Thanks, Zoot

@sharpener That post was very kind, thanks. Some things actually became slightly into focus, reading that. The Mick Wall 'easy steps' link.. is still far from easy for me though. I honestly think with everyone having smartphones, I've just not gained the ability to do these complicated menu things. Plus the terminology ontop. So I'm still plodding away trying to understand the timer setting. Onward from that, the Mick Wall link is all too advanced for me. @-rick- The thing that still isn't sitting well to me, or sitting at all, is the bare fact that my cottage basically has no insulation. All this Mick Wall link, the recommendations of this way/ that way, all aren't aligned, to a house with my structural inadequacies. They all basically assume & are tethered to a house with a basic ammount of insulation. No-one comes across a house like mine. The few people who've been in the house in the colder months, simply cannot believe how cold it is here (how I live like this). This huge discrepancy between here, & your house/ any other forum member's houses/ tbh any other house, means a great deal. It means my house if it does get up to a room temp within a timed heating period, will extremely quickly lose it/ drop back to setback, & fire up again. Ad nauseum, all day. And all night too by all accounts (it'll be doing the same thing, dropping below setback pronto, & firong up to try & achieve setback level). So it'll be on almost constantly as a result. Day & night. Completely differently to your house, a normal house insulation ammount, whereby it'll be running almost the opposite way: it'll retain heat well, so won't be losing heat/ won't be firing up again very many times. Day & night. This will inevitably lead to massive increace in my bills. Which I cannot afford. So I must make a considerable compromise, in operating it, compared to the way you would use it. To the way anyone else would. You don't have this mountain of cold your system has to battle against. I simply -have- to have my max room temp, no more than 18*C. And my setback at maximum, 14*C. And my overnight setting 10*C. If it goes off sooner becuase the thermostat is in 'the warmest, box room' (that isn't a warm room tbough, to you, to any normal house's small room).. so be it. I cannot afford to run it like Mick Wall suggests. Purely due to my massive lack of insulation. So it's now just a case of trying to input these preferences, into the controller-thermostat Vrc700 box. Noise: no, you are right that in my bedroom & generally it's blissfully less noisy than before. But the small box bedroom, with all the pipes, 2 boxes, & cylinder in.. you hear the system working in there still alright. The compressor pipes emitting sound into the room when it's on. Meaning it's unuseable as a bedroom, unless you wear earplugs, if the bloody house heating is set to go dipping on-off-on-off all through overnight that is. I still just hear it in my main bedroom too: a primary reason I don't want the damn system, to be active, at night. Not a gas CH system, not a HP system. Not any CH system. Thanks, Zoot

Right I've had a dive into this Controller manual. Absolutely ridiculously complicated, for me for a start. So, the MOON symbol, has nothing to do with night. Absurd design. It will come on anytime (within the fkn DAY) to signify Setback. I already want to throw this thing in the river. Secondly, it had Zone things. Now on the face of it it's ridiculously complicated, but, it MIGHT THOUGH mean that I can designate a night zone, as a block period of time, of which I can stipulate a temp for it to get to. And I have my Setback set to 12*C (my max) & then I can also set my nightzone to 12*C too.. then that's a start. Although in colder nights if I hear any mechanical noise.. I'll put my nightzone to 8*C. Which means I'm forced to put my Setback to 8*C too. So if I provisionally set my required room temp to 18*C, my Setback to 12*C, & try to create a nightzone of 12*C. I can't move my controller-thermostat: there's simply nowhere else for it to go. And contrary to replies saying it's too warm in this box room/ worst place for it, being actually never warm really & having nowhere else suitable.. I think it's actually maybe the best place for it. Yes it's slightly warmer in this room, but surely I can bear this in mind with regards to the numbers I dial into it. Just pip then up, or down a bit. Whichever way- I can't think which right now. Thanks Zoot

Hi Rick, no I only mentioned the HW temp. Which I set at 46. So, this Flow Temp is something I need to set, or check. But if you say it varies.. ah well then maybe I just assume the installer has set it to default. I don't know I'm only trying to get the basics in place, first. Ok will leave that then. Fwiw I just looked on the 'Live Monitor' (idea: to see if I could confirm it's doing the HW create 1hr period 9am-10am, but nothing within the Live Indicator tells me it's active, frustratingly, so I'll never know if it's doing what it's meant to with the HW) & scrolling through a good few screens on my way (this is on the interface new box) & saw a Flow Rate & also a Flow Temp: 48 aiming for 51. I don't want to go near this box really though. I was told I shouldn't ever need to use it by installer- but very 1st thing I was asked to do by Vaillant team 3 weeks later.

Sorry I missed that post then, will go back. I looked at my paper one for the vrc700, but says "For the competent person" on front (kinda ironically). With installer technical stuff only. Seems like maybe I've never had a user one as maybe I should.

@-rick- I have known my HW temp is 46*C. Because I set this (so have some competency using the controller-thermostat). Now you are suggesting in the prior post here, that 46 is also good for my Flow Temperature. But by the same token (& I believe this to be true), you've told me that my HW setting isn't directly linked-in with my Flow temp. So. Is it simply a coincidence that you now also suggest 46 as a 'decent medium setting' for my Flow temp? -- (Matshian says it's "hard for him": chaps please bear in mind that that may well be so, but it's 10x as hard for me: I do sense Rick here understands this. Thx). Zoot

Yup hard work for me too mr.marshian.. As I -did- get why you used your alien there.. but even so... you still haven't answered my Q. After trying three times in 3 successive posts. Look, you're getting fed up. That is understandable, I profess full idiocy with regard to this HP. But look, do yourself a favour, leave it to these other kind folks? I am honestly not wanting you to get angry, & really appreaciate trying to help me. But it is perhaps complicating things just a bit further for me, yourself having gas CH. Using gas CH numbers perhaps that I cannot relate to. With thanks, Zoot

@marshian Respectfully as you are trying to help using simple analogies like Aliens, but even so, I am still lost. I am confused here, about whether you are referring to a -room temp- of 19*C to 25*C (19-25 figures tally with a room temp figure that I set my old folks storage heater to), or, whether you're a answering my question of.. Can someone tell me what an average Flow Temperature setting, for this HP is? I just want to make sure the basics are in place, before I start changing settings to this Auto/ Timer thing. Anything 'medium' is ok. I'll just whack that in. You see if I were to find the recent installer has dialed in an excessively high figure, then this isn't put in with efficiency in mind, so I need to lower it (& vice-versa, but as the rads seem fairly hot, then I don't suppose he's dialed in too low a figure- may have though, for all I know). It might well be 19-25*C!! I don't know. I suspect the Flow Temp is a different ballpark to this typical room temp though. Like 46 or something.. although 46 as a figure I know is my HW temp. Which I now know is -separate- to the Flow Temp, from the most recent replies. Thanks Zoot

Understand the logic in this reply. But even so, that doesn't answer my question of basically "what do I set mine to?". (Unless you are suggesting "set it to 30*C Flow temp, that is a general medium number, for UK households"). I don't understand whether I have optimal rads for here, sub-optimal rads for here, I don't know if you're privvy to a plethora of U value calculations to know abc, xyz. Furthermore you have a gas CH system. A HP system is by nature a different way of doing things: generally speaking bigger rads that output lower than gas CH systems. This therefore is perhaps going to mean a fundamentally different Flow temp.. I mean isn't it? Thanks, Zoot

Hi Rick, bottom of the stairs, actually IS in my sittingroom! Haha, so seriously there's not any good place for it anywhere in this cottage, was my point tbh. It's case of the least-worst option. Which is likely not much different to where it is tbh: this room is never warm, it's slightly warmer than the others only. That's still damn cold, due to the construction. Because the cottage has these construction caveats (the plasterboard redo upstairs job just to aid one small bit of it... is a massive undertaking for me, hugely inny-outy complex, 4 windows to go around, with 4 box-affair fake wall areas to recreate. Plus I renovated both rooms in last 6 years, up to how they look now/ finished/ so a galling prospect)... even if I upped the heating, when it gets up to speed & trips off, it would then go cold again far quicker than any insulated house. Meaning it would have to be going on-off-on far more often. Meaning my heating bill won't just be bigger, it'll be hugely bigger. That's using plain logic. This is where to me, addressing the main sittingroom floor, could only really be considered IME. I asked the latest installer (the Vaillant trained-up competent one, with his £70k electric van outside) if I did redo floor in here, could I disconnect the two big double rads, & connect the HP up to a UFH circuit here? IE a UFH 'ring' sizewise directly similar to these two bigass double rads. Yes he said. Furthermore he said it was a decent idea, & connection to the cylinder easy, due to it being directly above/ pipe just comes straight down 2m, albeit 2x bit larger diameter copper pipes. I could only really consider the logistics of this renovation job, not removing all the plasterboard in 2 bedrooms above. I could try the small holes > input foam, in the perimeter. But the floor between the rooms hasn't thickness for even 1" of insulation to be introduced. Anyway, still trying to plan how I can use the HP/ setting etc. The fact that you seem t9 concur that an overnight setting CAN be dialed in, separate from the Auto/ Timer setting (which I now believe to be the one suggested), means I can do that then. Even if not optimal for your suggested way, I can at least have it set lower. No choice- I have to have it set like so. Besides, it does clearly imply by design, that a lower setting overnight is perhaps even 'standard fayre' (or what's the moon symbol even for?). Thanks, Zoot

Hi marshian, ok good so I get the general gist of this, but cannot glean an answer from your reply as to 'what is a medium setting I need to put (this flow temp to) with efficiency in mind'. Forgive me but I can't use your 70% figure to do anything wth, other than see it's a high percentage number; more than that, it remains completely arbitrary. Are you meant to 1) assume the installer sets this flow temp to a default factory setting, or set it yourself day 1, or I don't know, do calculations of some kind, to know what to set it to-? Thanks, Zoot