New roof on a full house refurbishment or is it War & Peace?

[frslam]

Hi all, Season's Greetings and all that! Where do I start? I'm refurbishing my old family home. I employed a roofing contractor and he agreed to purchase the materials on my behalf for which I provided all the correct order codes. The roof is approximately 140m2, job entails stripping lightweight concrete slates, fitting new membrane, fascia's, 5 x VELUX windows and re-slating. The price for all of this (not including scaffolding) was approximately £30k. The job was supposed to start mid to late October, allowing the roofing contractor to safely strip the roof before my new windows (£15.5k) were going to be installed.

 

My new windows were installed on the due date of 10th November but the roofing contractor spent the previous couple of weeks giving me excuse after excuse why he hadn't started yet. When he did get around to starting, I provided him with as many sheets of OSB as needed in order to protect the new windows before I headed off for a meeting. On my return, the roofer told me he had damaged a window (the biggest window in the house). I inspected the other 2 windows on that elevation and discovered that he had damaged all 3 windows, at a cost of over £1,700.00. At first he said he would pay for the damaged windows (which I naturally, secretly recorded him saying). I received the quote for the repair and relayed this to the contractor, he said "it is what it is..." before again confirming that he would be paying for the damage. He drove away from the site and after a few minutes he phoned me. He said "just calling to let you know that I won't be paying for the repair of your windows because your scaffolding is not 'up to spec' to protect the windows below it. All I could say in reply was, scaffolding's job is for access and safe working at height environment, not to protect windows. I also asked him why he never used a debris chute to safely discard old slates from the roof. Hi response was "well, where's your skip". (I didn't have one, it wouldn't fit and couldn't be positioned on site because of low overhead electric wires), but the tele-handler on site was used with a big bucket to load the old slates into anyway. 

 

The Roofing Contractor starts fitting VELUX windows into framing that had been previously carried out. All he had to do was drop them in and fix them to timber. Then the breathable membrane was installed and finally the slating started (no grading of slates was carried out). I inspected the roof while he wasn't onsite (which was most of the time), and the day before he was due to come back to site I sent him an image on an instant message platform. I needed to inspect the work carried out up until then because we had a storm hit us between the time he left the site and the time he was due to return. This was on a Sunday but we agreed that he'd work Sundays in order to get the job done before the worst of the weather hits us. He didn't actually show up on Sundays, or most other days either. I told him I was unhappy with the membrane fitment, not 'lapping' into the (Scot) Dry Verge channel like it's supposed to, in fact, sarking boards are visible between the membrane and the Dry Verge. His response was to tell me that he couldn't work for me anymore, that he would be in the following day to collect his things. Then came the threats of Court action from him. All I paid him up until this point was approximately £16k for materials and a joiner to work alongside myself. I have to cover myself so went up to inspect his work. The 'cheap' membrane he used on the roof had completely failed or was poorly installed, allowing the rain to soak right through the sarking boards, the water was beading on the inside of untreated timber sarking. The sarking boards aren't a major issue being relatively cheap and easy to replace, what was very concerning was the sheer amount of water coming in, soaking the sarking and all that water starting to soak into all of the rafters. The house had been constructed in the early 1970's and I'd be lucky if the roof timbers were treated at all (against water ingress damage). As it turns out, the contractor ordered the incorrect flashings for the VELUX windows, destroyed the cartons they came in before realising they were the wrong items, then telling me that they couldn't be returned now because the boxes they were in were damaged and not re-usable. I then have to spend another £1k buying the correct flashings ( I had already paid for all materials when they were ordered from JEWSONS). 

 

On discovering the wrong items were delivered, the Contractor telephoned the local JEWSONS to report it. They told him, which I heard as I was standing right beside him, that I had gone in to the local JEWSON Depot and changed the order. I did go in to the Depot but when I asked the staff about the order, they told me they couldn't discuss it with me because it was someone else's (the Roofing Contractor's) order. So I get the blame which should be impossible, going by their own policies, and the roofer destroys the cartons containing the materials, meaning they cannot now be returned.

 

I have plenty photographic evidence of all this. I also taken images from the slating side. There are images of the sarking and rafters taken 9 days after the roof membrane was installed, images of the membrane to Dry Verge fitment and images of the slate installation (which I think isn't great, but am I being too fussy? The difference in position (course height) of the slate upper left of the image with the slate to the right of it is approximately 8-9mm followed by another 5-6mm height difference again to the next slate)

 

 

[Andehh]

Time for a new roofer, or start resolving yourself I’m afraid. 

 

Part of self building is knowing you get good trades, and (expletive deleted)ing shit hole bastard crooked ones (delete as required). We got lucky in having so many good ones... But I would piss on the electrician if he was on fire.

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Nickfromwales
Such an awesome post can’t have typos. Salute!

[Gus Potter]

The key qeustion here is do you still own the Contractor money and if so how much? That will drive the rest of the conversation. 

8 hours ago, frslam said:

Then came the threats of Court action from him.

Make sure you write to the Contractor and confirm that he has confirmed he is walking away form the job. 

 

I used to be a building Contractor in my last life, once I had a customer that was basically an out and out chancer and I wanted to leave the job. My QS told me.. on no account Gus chuck your tools in the van and walk off site as you will get absolutely hammered! The law rests firmly on the domestic Client side and they have an Architect who will back them up and they won't want to put themselves in the firing line. 

 

Make sure when you write to the Contractor, use the postal method also, don't just rely on email. This is a key step. If he is using wats app / text then say I've sent a letter and email to you, keep a copy. 

8 hours ago, frslam said:

which I naturally, secretly recorded him saying

Ah.. best not to mention this anymore, it kind of undermines you taking the high ground.

 

8 hours ago, frslam said:

I inspected the roof while he wasn't onsite

Ah... now the first response from Contractor on the defensive is to say "its my site" and you are not authorised to access the scaffolding and you inspected the work illegally! I have actually had similar from a major warranty provider where they asked me how I got record photographs without accessing the scaffold. I told them I'm an SE so qualified to make an assessment of your scaffold. I consider this a matter of saftey and it turned out I was right also, your ticket was out of date so lets start from here! Your case is a little different, but if the Contractor has previously allowed you to go up the Scaffold without supervision at all times, induction, then they are pretty much stuffed. 

[frslam]

27 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

The key qeustion here is do you still own the Contractor money and if so how much? That will drive the rest of the conversation. 

Make sure you write to the Contractor and confirm that he has confirmed he is walking away form the job. 

 

I used to be a building Contractor in my last life, once I had a customer that was basically an out and out chancer and I wanted to leave the job. My QS told me.. on no account Gus chuck your tools in the van and walk off site as you will get absolutely hammered! The law rests firmly on the domestic Client side and they have an Architect who will back them up and they won't want to put themselves in the firing line. 

 

Make sure when you write to the Contractor, use the postal method also, don't just rely on email. This is a key step. If he is using wats app / text then say I've sent a letter and email to you, keep a copy. 

Ah.. best not to mention this anymore, it kind of undermines you taking the high ground.

 

Ah... now the first response from Contractor on the defensive is to say "its my site" and you are not authorised to access the scaffolding and you inspected the work illegally! I have actually had similar from a major warranty provider where they asked me how I got record photographs without accessing the scaffold. I told them I'm an SE so qualified to make an assessment of your scaffold. I consider this a matter of saftey and it turned out I was right also, your ticket was out of date so lets start from here! Your case is a little different, but if the Contractor has previously allowed you to go up the Scaffold without supervision at all times, induction, then they are pretty much stuffed. 

I still owe all of the Labour which is only due on completion, £11.5k. As far as any trades are concerned it's my scaffolding. I set it up for myself to replace all fascia and soffits after stripping the old out. All the roofing contractor did after I finished that was to lift the scaffold up a level. I would have slated the roof myself but I got a nasty kick back from the rip snorter a month ago (2 fingers barely hanging on) when carrying out Joinery inside the house. My main reason for posting this on here was to see what you guys thought, particularly if I potentially had a reason to be unhappy about the standard of the works carried out going by the images provided, or am I wrong? Sometimes, stuff like this could be quite subjective, other times not

[Gus Potter]

3 minutes ago, frslam said:

I got a nasty kick back from the rip snorter a month ago (2 fingers barely hanging on)

Hope you can get your hand sorted out. That sounds like a bad accident, don't blame yoursefl, it could happen to anyone. 

 

To business.

 

9 minutes ago, frslam said:

My main reason for posting this on here was to see what you guys thought, particularly if I potentially had a reason to be unhappy about the standard of the works carried out going by the images provided, or am I wrong? Sometimes, stuff like this could be quite subjective, other times not

I think you likely have enough to evidence against the standards, so not subjective. Unless you have over egged your post. 

 

But you have not provided that many photographs. Your sarking boards are treated, so not rotting,  so I would not want to hang my hat on that as as a basis. But here is a question. If the roof has a breathable membrane then we need to have gaps between the sarking boards. I specify 100 mm wide boards with a 5.0 mm gap. You don't seem to have this. A competent roofer should know that this is a general requirement and check that the membrane is ok and the sarking gap. 

 

As an art of slating the slates at the verges are not tailed to shed the water back towards the roof. But you have plastic verges, just a symptom of decreasing skill level in the slating trade. 

 

My gut feeling is that if I and others on BH were to look under the bonnet we would come up with evidence that supports the arguement that you should not pay this contractor the balance. I trust you have photos from the inside of the roof. Lets have a look at the Velux trimming and so on. What nails has the roofer used? Let us know so we can check they have used the right ones. How close are you to the sea? 

 

Legally what you might want to ( I'm not a Lawyer so don't come after me!) is confirm if the Contractor intends to return or not. If they say they are going to return then you need to spell out the defects you want addressed, at their expense and when they are going to do that. You might want to say that if you can't agree then you will both agree on an independent arbitor. 

 

Now there is a good chance that the Contractor won't come back as they have chucked their toys out the pram. But you have to go through the process so protecting yourself. The contractors wife may be a Lawyer and work pro bono. 

[frslam]

24 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Hope you can get your hand sorted out. That sounds like a bad accident, don't blame yoursefl, it could happen to anyone. 

 

To business.

 

I think you likely have enough to evidence against the standards, so not subjective. Unless you have over egged your post. 

 

But you have not provided that many photographs. Your sarking boards are treated, so not rotting,  so I would not want to hang my hat on that as as a basis. But here is a question. If the roof has a breathable membrane then we need to have gaps between the sarking boards. I specify 100 mm wide boards with a 5.0 mm gap. You don't seem to have this. A competent roofer should know that this is a general requirement and check that the membrane is ok and the sarking gap. 

 

As an art of slating the slates at the verges are not tailed to shed the water back towards the roof. But you have plastic verges, just a symptom of decreasing skill level in the slating trade. 

 

My gut feeling is that if I and others on BH were to look under the bonnet we would come up with evidence that supports the arguement that you should not pay this contractor the balance. I trust you have photos from the inside of the roof. Lets have a look at the Velux trimming and so on. What nails has the roofer used? Let us know so we can check they have used the right ones. How close are you to the sea? 

 

Legally what you might want to ( I'm not a Lawyer so don't come after me!) is confirm if the Contractor intends to return or not. If they say they are going to return then you need to spell out the defects you want addressed, at their expense and when they are going to do that. You might want to say that if you can't agree then you will both agree on an independent arbitor. 

 

Now there is a good chance that the Contractor won't come back as they have chucked their toys out the pram. But you have to go through the process so protecting yourself. The contractors wife may be a Lawyer and work pro bono. 

OK. When the contractor told me that he could no longer work for me because I criticised the membrane fitment in relation to the dry verge, he stated that he would be on site the next day to collect his tools. He did arrive and took all his tools away the following day. 

 

The timbers in the roof are from the early 1970's, the sarking is not so much of a worry, that's 10 a penny and easy to swap but the level of water in them and they're soaking into rafters, that's a different kettle of fish. Not sure what the level or standard of treatment was available almost 60 years ago.

 

Didn't need to over egg any of it,  unfortunately. 

 

Velux fitment is woeful. He deleted the insulated collars that came with the flashings kits and opted instead for a 10mm trimmer gap and expanding foam. The Velux was also caked around the outer edges with sealant, my opinion is that is unnecessary, Velux kits are expensive and designed to prevent any leaking.

 

The images from inside the roof were taken 9 days after the membrane was installed and expected to be like that until mid January when the correct velux flashings would arrive. The winters in the Highlands beside the West Coast are rough and I feel that a lot of damage could occur.

 

 

 

 

[frslam]

1 hour ago, Gus Potter said:

Hope you can get your hand sorted out. That sounds like a bad accident, don't blame yoursefl, it could happen to anyone. 

 

To business.

 

I think you likely have enough to evidence against the standards, so not subjective. Unless you have over egged your post. 

 

But you have not provided that many photographs. Your sarking boards are treated, so not rotting,  so I would not want to hang my hat on that as as a basis. But here is a question. If the roof has a breathable membrane then we need to have gaps between the sarking boards. I specify 100 mm wide boards with a 5.0 mm gap. You don't seem to have this. A competent roofer should know that this is a general requirement and check that the membrane is ok and the sarking gap. 

 

As an art of slating the slates at the verges are not tailed to shed the water back towards the roof. But you have plastic verges, just a symptom of decreasing skill level in the slating trade. 

 

My gut feeling is that if I and others on BH were to look under the bonnet we would come up with evidence that supports the arguement that you should not pay this contractor the balance. I trust you have photos from the inside of the roof. Lets have a look at the Velux trimming and so on. What nails has the roofer used? Let us know so we can check they have used the right ones. How close are you to the sea? 

 

Legally what you might want to ( I'm not a Lawyer so don't come after me!) is confirm if the Contractor intends to return or not. If they say they are going to return then you need to spell out the defects you want addressed, at their expense and when they are going to do that. You might want to say that if you can't agree then you will both agree on an independent arbitor. 

 

Now there is a good chance that the Contractor won't come back as they have chucked their toys out the pram. But you have to go through the process so protecting yourself. The contractors wife may be a Lawyer and work pro bono. 

Now, the sarking usually has a 3 to 5mm gap on most boards but they are so full of water that they have expanded a bit. I know the images look a wee bit glossy like well treated timber, but that's not the case - they are very wet. Gently pushing your thumb into the timber sends quite a bit of water down your sleeve

 

The rafter framing/trimming for Velux was carried out myself under instruction, the roofer quoted all opening sizes to me as I never had the windows on site. I only realised afterwards that the openings didn't allow for the insulated collars. This is evidenced by dimension details forwarded to me by the roofer. I opted for level top and plumb lower reveals.