Bathroom layout and difficulty running drains - ideas appreciated

[Addlepate]

7 hours ago, torre said:

It's tough making decisions with the clock ticking! You'll be spending a lot of money on both the refit and the boiler though so if you're very undecided pushing back the install at a stage where you're not letting the plumber down last minute may make sense.

 

3 hours ago, -rick- said:

If it's a zero cost option other than a short delay then it would certainly be my preference. If not, then maybe consider what option gives you the most future flexibility.

 

It is tough! However it's good in a way, as it's making us press on with things.

 

Re. postponing I agree, though it might not be possible; the politics are internal, rather than with the installer! Partner is the 'just want to get on with it' type ...

 

I think it's nearly there, so I'll discuss with partner again tonight and show her the latest layout.

 

7 hours ago, torre said:

If pushed, I think boiler backing onto the long wall looks a bit more flexible, narrows the room less.

 

I do too, I think it's helped open things up and balance the room further, and make the cupboard that bit less dominant again.

 

7 hours ago, torre said:

Is there any scope for moving the doorway? If it was more central on that wall you could put the boiler cupboard top left behind the swing of the door. (You might have to squeeze past it if the boiler has to be installed before the door can be moved!)

 

I don't think there is. The door opens off the end of a landing / corridor and through a supporting wall, so it would be difficult to arrange, though I'll have a think.

 

3 hours ago, -rick- said:

What's the current window setup? Most buildings from that age would be brick with a window cill at the bottom and plaster to the sides/above ... If you install the boiler on that wall and a little away from the external wall (150mm??) then you leave space to add insulation to that wall later ...

 

Brick built, old style uninsulated cavity wall, window is uPVC double glazed in the original wood frame, wood sill, moulding round to trim to the walls. You'd need to make the whole frame deeper then refit the moulding, I think. It would be good to improve the insulation, but we haven't thought in depth yet, so as you suggest leaving the option might be useful.

 

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

That’s a major hurdle, go for it.

 

😄👍

 

2 hours ago, -rick- said:

I found a random freestanding bath installation doc. Looks like this one has space under it to allow pipes to run along the floor to near the edge ...

 

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

They mostly do, you can get chrome bath waste and pipe as well as chrome floor to bath tap tubes to hide copper or plastic water pipes.

 

I was thinking this, and am going to have a look for likely baths and related technical info. Some seem to have space under, some not. I'm not sure whether the flush to floor ones with space under are still intended to have the waste under the floor, though, so you would have to cut a hole in the skirt; and I'd have to work out what to do with the visible waste above the floor; perhaps use a chrome [effect] one as the freestanding baths with legs have, as @joe90 refers to - or even use a freestander with legs, though I haven't seen one I particularly like the design of yet.

 

There are also baths that have a free standing appearance, but are designed to go against one or more walls ('back to wall' or 'D shape' baths e.g. https://www.eastbrooktrade.com/en-gb/malin-d-shape-btw-1700x800-beauforte-42_1241. I have yet to investigate, but that might achieve the visual effect of a free standing bath while making dealing with (hiding) the waste easier.

 

2 hours ago, ETC said:

Have the shower above the bath.

 

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

Only if you don’t have room for a proper shower (IMO).

 

Yes, I agree. It looks as though a proper shower is achievable in the space without too many compromises, it's what the boss wants, and we can achieve a good - and fairly good looking - layout, so I don't think we need to fall back to a shower over the bath unless really stuck.

 

I really think this is coming together, particularly on the immediate question of boiler location, and I really appreciate all the thoughts and ideas. It seems to me the top right corner probably is the only location for the boiler (assuming it's still to be in the bathroom, and there aren't really options anywhere else). It looks as though we can achieve a good layout with it there (option 2 above), without having the boiler / airing cupboard too dominant, and it looks as though there are options for the bath; freestanding, or back to the wall, might be an option and we can always fall back to a built in.

 

For me, the boiler on the long wall gives a slightly better appearance and layout to the room, leaves options (e.g. external wall insulation), and the space around the basin would work better, but cupboard and boiler servicing access will be restricted by the bath (though still exceeding the boiler manufacturer's requirements); while boiler on the window wall  will be slightly easier to fit, still gives a reasonable room layout and offers better cupboard and servicing access but perhaps the appearance isn't as good and it doesn't work as well with the basin. Let me know if I've missed anything!

 

More thinking this evening - and a consultation with the mistress of the house!

 

 

Edited January 2 by Addlepate

[-rick-]

Good luck.

 

Do you have room to angle the bath in the corner? If you are worried about space in front of the boiler it might be an option if you have the space on the wall with the toilet/shower. Tradeoffs might not be worth it but something else to consider.

[Addlepate]

4 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Do you have room to angle the bath in the corner? If you are worried about space in front of the boiler it might be an option if you have the space on the wall with the toilet/shower. Tradeoffs might not be worth it but something else to consider.

 

 I was thinking about that, not sure though and not sure about the appearance / aesthetics. I'll have a hunt for bath options tonight and see.

[Addlepate]

Just realised even with the shower near the stack there's still a joist in the way of the shower drain. Measuring tape out and thinking cap on again.

[-rick-]

Can you draw a diagram?

[joe90]

Can you not run it outside? If not one joist adequately strengthened will be doable 

1 hour ago, -rick- said:

Can you draw a diagram?

yes including outside pipes /stack etc

[Addlepate]

@-rick-, @joe90 I'll try - I have an eye operation today which might get in the way.

 

Basically the joists run longways / right to left with the first joist about 75mm from the bottom wall. The current bath waste avoids this as the trap is one side then the waste passes over it. The stack is on the outside of the bottom long wall, just under 400mm from the bottom left corner. I'm inclined to agree that one joist should be OK if I can get in to bore a hole on the centreline.

 

I've just had a nag from the gas installer about positioning while writing this - wants to order the flue!

[Addlepate]

@-rick-, @joe90 Is this helpful? Same orientation as the layouts. Dimensions in millimetres. Room is 3300 x 2730.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3 by Addlepate

[-rick-]

This LABC doc says a hole of up to 50mm should be ok in a joist 200mm deep. https://www.labc.co.uk/news/how-get-it-right-notches-holes-solid-timber-joists 40mm should be fine for a short run of shower waste.

 

Don't know if that applies in your situation but seems similar. The joist is also close enough to the wall that I would guess you could block out from the wall and attach the joist to the wall either side of the hole to reinforce it if needed or for piece of mind.

 

But please don't take anything I say about this as gospel. I've gone through a similar thought process before with another bathroom but ended up not doing the work so never got to the stage of verifying compliance.

 

Good luck with your surgery. Health should always come first, this stuff (including the plumber) can wait if you aren't feeling up to it.

Edited January 3 by -rick-

[joe90]

I hope your eye op went ok? Been out all day and just got back to thinking about this. I like your drawing no 3 and would be my choice, and my comments are

1/ shower waste through one joist (next to a wall so carrying less weight IMO ) perfectly doable just glue and screw some 50mm x 25mm x 300mm to top and bottom of the joist to take care of compression and tension around the hole.

2/ basin waste in 32mm or 40mm + hot and cold buried in new IWI or deep skirting (IWI better all round for house insulation.) and out to the stack

3/ move toilet out to accommodate IWI. and re position if required. 
4/ bath waste again buried in IWI along with hot and cold and out to the stack 

 

with regard the boiler, can you not prefab a board with insulation attached big enough to hang the boiler and to the floor (3/4” ply) and quickly fit it between the old boiler coming out and new boiler being hung? (Even if you pay the fitter a hour extra to make it worth your while) You can then IWI the rest of the cupboard afterwards.

 

IWI great to insulate the room AND hide all the pipework, fit all pipes then just cut the insulation around them when fitting.

as an aside, I am a convert from tiles to wall panels and would never go back. 

Edited January 3 by joe90

[Addlepate]

Just a quick one as I can't see properly. @joe90 I should have numbered as I went - this one?

 

 

More tomorrow if I can see.

[joe90]

55 minutes ago, Addlepate said:

^{as I can't see properly.}

yes . 🤣(sorry)

[Addlepate]

Hi all, sorry for the delay replying. Giving the eyes a bit of recovery.

 

On 03/01/2025 at 11:17, -rick- said:

Good luck with your surgery. Health should always come first, this stuff (including the plumber) can wait if you aren't feeling up to it.

 

On 03/01/2025 at 16:51, joe90 said:

I hope your eye op went ok?

 

Thank you both. I think it went OK - won't really know until the follow up in a month or so. Weirdest experience I've ever had, I think, but I won't go into the gory detail!

 

 

On 03/01/2025 at 11:17, -rick- said:

This LABC doc says a hole of up to 50mm should be ok in a joist 200mm deep ... The joist is also close enough to the wall that I would guess you could block out from the wall and attach the joist to the wall either side of the hole to reinforce it if needed or for piece of mind.

 

On 03/01/2025 at 16:51, joe90 said:

... my comments are ... shower waste through one joist (next to a wall so carrying less weight IMO ) perfectly doable just glue and screw some 50mm x 25mm x 300mm to top and bottom of the joist to take care of compression and tension around the hole.

 

I'm inclined to agree. There would only be one hole needed through one joist so no issues with trying to achieve a fall and the hole could be on centreline and less than 50mm. I think that it is the joist next to the wall likely means it will be subject to less loading, though I'm not sure yet how much of the bath load will be imposed on it. I also feel more relaxed about it as the joists are slightly over-specified for the span.

 

I think it would be difficult to arrange blocking to the wall, and I'm not sure if I misunderstand what you mean about reinforcing top and bottom - do you mean on the side of the joist above and below the hole, as the floor and downstairs ceiling are attached top and bottom? I could make up ply flitches with a matching hole, or perhaps sister the joist. I'll make investigations and maybe talk to building control.

 

On 03/01/2025 at 16:51, joe90 said:

2/ basin waste in 32mm or 40mm + hot and cold buried in new IWI or deep skirting (IWI better all round for house insulation.) and out to the stack

3/ move toilet out to accommodate IWI. and re position if required. 
4/ bath waste again buried in IWI along with hot and cold and out to the stack 

 

with regard the boiler, can you not prefab a board with insulation attached big enough to hang the boiler and to the floor (3/4” ply) and quickly fit it between the old boiler coming out and new boiler being hung? (Even if you pay the fitter a hour extra to make it worth your while) You can then IWI the rest of the cupboard afterwards.

 

IWI great to insulate the room AND hide all the pipework, fit all pipes then just cut... the insulation around them when fitting.

as an aside, I am a convert from tiles to wall panels and would never go back. 

 

I'm thinking at the moment wood T&G / Shiplap type panelling (probably actually water resistant MDF or wall panels) then painted walls. Internal wall insulation is do-able and would be better for a bathroom but need to think about the work and how to accommodate the window frame etc. If we go panelling it would probably be stepped out from the wall allowing pipes to be hidden behind and giving room for insulation at least part way up.

 

I'll speak to the gas installer about the need to mount the boiler on a board, as he might be doing it anyway, but I don't think it will be needed for insulation as if we're going for option 3 it will be mounted on the top long wall, and that's an internal (party) wall so no (or not as much) need for insulation. I can get him to mount it with a bit of clearance to the window wall to allow for insulation to that wall.

 

I agree on wall panels, haven't used them but they look good and much quicker / simpler than tiles, it's just whether we can get them in the style we want.

 

As regards boiler positioning and bathroom layout, the vote here seems to be option 3 and I walked partner through it at the weekend and she agrees, so that's decided and I've committed to the boiler installation top right on the long wall on Friday.

 

Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts and help, I've felt very on my own with this stuff and it's good to have the support and be able to kick ideas around.

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Addlepate said:

about reinforcing top and bottom - do you mean on the side of the joist above and below the hole,

Glad your op appears to have gone ok. Yes on the side or a piece, or ply the depth of the joist glued and screwed and then drill both.