LDC for a Garage/Indoor Pool Refused

[kandgmitchell]

On 25/03/2024 at 13:44, Alan Ambrose said:

Oh FFS, LDCs are lumped in with enforcement which is running at an average of 51 weeks + validation?

 

@kandgmitchell - did you get to 'validation' yet - it would be useful to have a time-from-file-to-validation data point for that flavour.

 

I have one for householders, which is 4 weeks file -> validation.

Hi Alan,

I submitted the appeal on the 26th October 2022. I got my start letter on the 14th November 2022 so a pretty quick response. However I got this today in response to my formal complaint that the process was taking too long...

 

Thank you for contacting the Planning Inspectorate.
 
I have passed your email on to the Case Officer who is currently dealing with this appeal for them to respond to your complaint. If you have any further queries in relation to this appeal, please contact the Case Officer directly.
 
Nevertheless, I would like to explain that although the time taken to handle an appeal may exceed the median of time published on our website, those are average handling times, not statutory timescales. We can only apologise for the delay and inconvenience caused by the length of time taken to process this appeal. 
 
I appreciate your concerns and dissatisfaction with the appeal process, please be assured that we are processing appeals as fast as our resources allow and that a site visit will be arrange as soon as possible. 
 

[phykell]

Quick update on my project:

After waiting almost six months* for an at least constructive response from my LPA, I gave up and hired a planning consultant who submitted an appeal on my behalf - this was in mid-September last year (2024). The appeal was successfully validated and is now listed on the Planning Inspectorate's web site as starting on the 7th January with the Questionnaire due on the 21st Jan, statement(s) due on the 18th February, interested party comments due on the 18th February and appellant/LPA final comments due on the 11th March.

 

I'm fairly sure that the case officer will have to arrange a site visit as the area in question can't be viewed from the road but I have no idea when this will be - will it be after the final comments?

Can anyone suggest when a decision might be made after the final comments? 

 

I get the impression my planning consultant just wants the appeal process to go ahead with no further input and the implication is that they can't add anything to the case now unless the case officer has any questions. Does anyone know if there's any opportunity to submit any further information? I see a "Make Representation" option on the portal but it's not clear what that is unless it's for third parties.

* I supplied them with extra information and asked if there were any changes I could make to be able to resubmit for a positive response. They kept either ignoring me or promising an internal meeting to consider the extra information - this never happened of course and shortly before my appeal window expired, I finally had a phone call (first one I've ever had from them) asking whether and when I was intending to submit an appeal (I'd already previously confirmed I would do so when my application was refused). Again, they said they'd discuss internally and try and get back to me before I had to appeal and I wonder if they were just hoping I'd give up or run out of time. It's a shame as I genuinely thought they were at least willing to consider the extra information I'd supplied.  

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> I'm fairly sure that the case officer will have to arrange a site visit as the area in question can't be viewed from the road but I have no idea when this will be - will it be after the final comments?

 

Believe so. I think if you say 'I need to be present' then at least you'll know exactly when the visit is.

>>> Can anyone suggest when a decision might be made after the final comments?

 

A couple of data points - my householder appeal decision was 2.3 months after final comments (9.3 months after filing), my 2x S78 full appeals were 5.5 months after (12 months after filing). I've no idea how representative they were, but they were not very complicated.

Edited Friday at 13:48 by Alan Ambrose

[phykell]

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> Believe so. I think if you say 'I need to be present' then at least you'll know exactly when the visit is.

Thanks - I did just that. There's no access to the site other than via some gates and I need to be there with them to point out some hazards such as the old swimming pool (drained). I'll leave out some warning signs/cones as well.

>>> A couple of data points - my householder appeal decision was 2.3 months after final comments (9.3 months after filing), my 2x S78 full appeals were 5.5 months after (12 months after filing). I've no idea how representative they were, but they were not very complicated.

Thanks - that's exactly what I did. There's no access to the site other than via some gates and I need to be there with them to point out some hazards such as the old swimming pool (drained). I'll leave out some warning signs/cones as well. I don't think I'm permitted to interact with them other than if they have questions and/or they arrange for the LPA's case officer to be on site as well.

Thanks again for the information regarding timing - it sounds then, like I might have a decision either way around May/June. I'm going to prepare for the worst though and continue trying to get a response from the LPA on considering the additional information I supplied. If I end up with a negative decision and no word from the LPA (most likely in my cynical opinion), I guess I'll have to resubmit my application but it's just a crap shoot - as their decision on the scale being unacceptable is clearly so subjective (all PD requirements were met), I have no idea what size would be acceptable and any reduction in scale would be completely arbitrary with no metrics on which to base my design on. It's all frankly ridiculous.

[kandgmitchell]

16 minutes ago, phykell said:

Thanks again for the information regarding timing - it sounds then, like I might have a decision either way around May/June.

Just be a little cautious, I had an appeal against refusal of a CoL start in November 2022 and the decision issued in May 2024. They blamed this on needing particular Inspectors for CoL and enforcement appeals. The Inspector refused the appeal but for a different (and addressible) reason than the Council used. Hopefully they've caught up with their backlog.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> I'm going to prepare for the worst though and continue trying to get a response from the LPA

 

I'm guessing that the LPA shelve your application as soon as they know it's gone off to appeal. For 'non-determination' I expect.

 

Others should comment, but I think there's nothing to be lost by submitting the same (or a very similar) application to the LPA. That way, you have both in parallel rather than sequentially. Next time I do planning, I may do 3 or 4 parallel applications simultaneously.

[phykell]

On 17/01/2025 at 17:26, kandgmitchell said:

Just be a little cautious, I had an appeal against refusal of a CoL start in November 2022 and the decision issued in May 2024. They blamed this on needing particular Inspectors for CoL and enforcement appeals. The Inspector refused the appeal but for a different (and addressible) reason than the Council used. Hopefully they've caught up with their backlog.

Agreed - hope the backlog is a bit better now and it doesn't take that long - that's madness. Can I ask though, if the appeal was refused on a different point, did that then *validate* the rest of the application? What happens then, do you have to resubmit an application with just that one issue addressed?

[phykell]

On 17/01/2025 at 17:43, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> I'm going to prepare for the worst though and continue trying to get a response from the LPA

 

I'm guessing that the LPA shelve your application as soon as they know it's gone off to appeal. For 'non-determination' I expect.

 

Others should comment, but I think there's nothing to be lost by submitting the same (or a very similar) application to the LPA. That way, you have both in parallel rather than sequentially. Next time I do planning, I may do 3 or 4 parallel applications simultaneously.

On that basis then, I might ask my planning consultant about resubmitting a parallel one. The problem is (and I don't know if you recall my LPA's spurious reason for refusing) that it's nothing really concrete (npi) that needs addressing - they simply refused it due to the "scale" of the development, even though all of the PD-specific requirements were met. As such, it's very difficult to deal with as I could only make a completely arbitrary reduction in scale, i.e. with no metrics supplied by the LPA on what would be acceptable. I've asked them already about being more specific and demonstrated that the scale was non-arbitrary, but, as ever, no reply. I understand their department is probably overloaded with work, especially as the council is busily developing everything they can (other than brownfield) but they're not doing the job that I paid for with respect to the exorbitant application fee.

[phykell]

A question for those who have been through the appeal process - I've submitted a questionnaire and a statement, and I may have to submit final comments. Does the LPA have to submit a corresponding questionnaire, statement, final comments and do I get to see them at any point, e.g. once the deadline for each state has expired? 

 

There's lots of information on the government web site about the process, but it doesn't suggest/confirm anything about the above that I can find.

[Alan Ambrose]

Yes, they will file a questionnaire and statement. I think they get copied to you by the appeals system (can’t quite remember). They may or may not file final comments, probably not, because they won’t have any more information by then. You probably will want to - to counter their arguments and that’ll be the first opportunity after you have seen their case. I remember though that some docs didn’t get copied to us, so look out for updates on the LPA’s site.

[Alan Ambrose]

So, for a S78 appeal, we had:

 

We lodged our statement - day 0, month 0. It took us maybe a month to write it.

2.8 months in - it was 'validated'.

5.3 months in - the appeal was 'started' which I think means assigned to an inspector.

5.5 months in - the LPA filed their questionnaire.

6.4 months in - the LPA filed their statement - this was the first time we got to see their exact arguments at appeal

6.9 months in - we filed our comments in answer to the LPA's statement. The LPA didn't file (presumably as they didn't have any extra info).

I figured the decision was due about 9.6 months in. I was wong.

12.4 months in - the decision arrived.

Edited Sunday at 17:14 by Alan Ambrose

[phykell]

Thanks - I saw the appeal process diagram for a section 78 appeal:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d555366ed915d08d3325bff/Inquiry_appeal_overview_diagram.pdf

Based on your experience, it's very optimistic!

Mine's a section 192 appeal but I can't find a specific process diagram so I assume it's much the same as for section 78.

[kandgmitchell]

21 hours ago, phykell said:

Can I ask though, if the appeal was refused on a different point, did that then *validate* the rest of the application? What happens then, do you have to resubmit an application with just that one issue addressed?

This was converting some substantial stable buildings within the client's domestic property into living accomodation for their daughter. The Council argued that this created a separate dwelling and thus required planning permission. I argued that all buildings within the planning unit had the same use i.e domestic and if the buildings were used by the family as an adjunct to the main house they weren't a separate dwelling. The Inspector agreed but picked up on something I (and the Council) missed - a lean-to shed used to house a lawn tractor was shown as demolished. The Inspector said this created a requirement for planning consent and thus the Certificate was refused. 

 

The client decided to convert the stables and leave the shed in place and ignore the Council.......

[phykell]

26 minutes ago, kandgmitchell said:

This was converting some substantial stable buildings within the client's domestic property into living accomodation for their daughter. The Council argued that this created a separate dwelling and thus required planning permission. I argued that all buildings within the planning unit had the same use i.e domestic and if the buildings were used by the family as an adjunct to the main house they weren't a separate dwelling. The Inspector agreed but picked up on something I (and the Council) missed - a lean-to shed used to house a lawn tractor was shown as demolished. The Inspector said this created a requirement for planning consent and thus the Certificate was refused. 

 

The client decided to convert the stables and leave the shed in place and ignore the Council.......

Good on them ignoring the council 👍

 

The council said I'd have to gain planning permission to demolish my existing (now previous) garage which I duly did. They then refused my LDC leaving me without any garage space for the past 18 months. House has no loft space so the main lounge is full of garage stuff. That's what happens if you follow the council's advice to demolish existing structures and then seek an LDC which they had no intention of granting.

[kandgmitchell]

Sorry to hear that, I'm afraid over the years I've learnt never to trust planners and to plan and obtain conformation of each stage with the appropriate approval notices. I was taught by an ex. senior planner turned consultant to "slowly, slowly catch your monkey".....