Post and beam Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 Should heat pumps without WC be deleted from the shopping list? The riello 8kw that i have been investigating does not apparently have it. The Midea that it is a clone of, as i have been told, does and looks to have a much better Scop. This really is getting totally confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanDee Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 (edited) https://www.toshiba-aircon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Technical-Specifications-Manual-04-16.pdf https://www.toshiba-aircon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/20230221_IM_NXHM004-016_EN.pdf https://www.toshiba-aircon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/20230221_OM_NXHM004-016_EN.pdf Edited August 4, 2023 by DanDee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 If they don't actually have it would say yes, but are you sure it doesn't have WC - last year it did and the CoP at different temperatures was the same, when I looked. SCoP can vary according to the country that generated the data you look at, as the baseline temps can be different etc. This thread would indicate the smaller one has a heating curve, not sure why the middle size one wouldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted August 4, 2023 Author Share Posted August 4, 2023 10 minutes ago, JohnMo said: are you sure it doesn't have WC No not at all. I am relying on the graph data from the site i have been pointed to in my other thread about Design Calcs see this .... will be taken from the Product Characteristic Database - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted August 4, 2023 Author Share Posted August 4, 2023 @DanDee I am a numpty with this. Walk me through it. Think Homer simpson for a few minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanDee Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 4 minutes ago, Post and beam said: @DanDee I am a numpty with this. Walk me through it. Think Homer simpson for a few minutes. It looks like it does have WC. It would be impossible to be a rebranded device yet not carry the most important feature of a modulating heat pump. I don't believe we can find any HP without WC or other similar function. Those 3 links are manuals for the Riello HP's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanDee Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 55 minutes ago, Post and beam said: Should heat pumps without WC be deleted from the shopping list? The riello 8kw that i have been investigating does not apparently have it. The Midea that it is a clone of, as i have been told, does and looks to have a much better Scop. This really is getting totally confusing. is WC=weather compensation you are referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted August 4, 2023 Author Share Posted August 4, 2023 1 minute ago, DanDee said: Those 3 links are manuals for the Riello HP's Yeah they looked like them when i scanned through. Just confused by the 'Toshiba' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted August 4, 2023 Author Share Posted August 4, 2023 1 minute ago, DanDee said: is WC=weather compensation you are referring to? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted August 4, 2023 Author Share Posted August 4, 2023 (edited) If i were to rely on this site for a buying choice , these 3 , from my admittedly small knowledge base, look to be good choices. Other popular models that people here seem happy with fare less well. Which is the reason for my 'if' at the start. Daikin, Ecodan and Vaillant for example in similar power range. The BRE site lists weather compensation as 'NO' for the Riello. Hence my question and this thread. Edited August 4, 2023 by Post and beam Wrong Temp for Riello Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanDee Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 15 minutes ago, Post and beam said: Yeah they looked like them when i scanned through. Just confused by the 'Toshiba' They are selling Riello as their monoblock option. https://www.toshiba-aircon.co.uk/products/air-to-water-heat-pumps/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanDee Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 9 minutes ago, Post and beam said: If i were to rely on this site for a buying choice , these 3 , from my admittedly small knowledge base, look to be good choices. Other popular models that people here seem happy with fare less well. Which is the reason for my 'if' at the start. Daikin, Ecodan and Vaillant for example in similar power range. The BRE site lists weather compensation as 'NO' for the Riello. Hence my question and this thread. https://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/pcdbsearchresults.jsp?heatPumpType=3&emitterType=0&type=362&serviceProvision=1&brand=Mitsubishi+Electric&model=Ecodan+8.5+kW&modelQualifier=PUZ-WM85VAA&pid=31&btnSubmit=Search https://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/pcdbdetails.jsp?pid=31&id=104645&type=362&mid=020047 https://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/pcdbdetails.jsp?pid=31&id=104641&type=362&mid=020047 One link says WC-no for mitsu as well, another link says yes, no other details as to what is that and why, so ignore. Also reversible-no, a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted August 5, 2023 Share Posted August 5, 2023 My LG heat pump describes its Weather Compensation feature as "AI". I think you may find that a lot of heat pump manufacturers do offer Weather Compensation but don't call it that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted August 5, 2023 Author Share Posted August 5, 2023 Going by the graph above i think a Midea is likely to be my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughF Posted August 5, 2023 Share Posted August 5, 2023 30 minutes ago, Post and beam said: Going by the graph above i think a Midea is likely to be my choice. Be aware that they are over specified, unlike Chofu/grant and others which will achieve output performance greater than the nameplate rating. Midea wouldn’t be on my list… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 5, 2023 Share Posted August 5, 2023 (edited) I still think your choice of heat pump is overkill. Looking at your SAP and compared to mine. Your Jan heat loss is 2388W, mine with the same average temp is 2979W. But at -9 Outside, our heating system draws 3.5kW - This being measured by a certified heat meter and tying in exactly with gas consumption (gas boiler at that time). When the heat season starts and most of the winter you are pulling just under to just over 1kW. Extreme days are not the norm. If you look at your graph and extent the lines left to the 1 to 3kW area things start to look very different. Both the Samsung and Midea are falling in efficiency. Edited August 5, 2023 by JohnMo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughF Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 What John said…. 3.5kW vaillant would be my recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughF Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 And fwiw, as far as I can tell the only heat pumps on the market that don’t offer WC are the dream units from eBay, the occasional ground source unit, and swimming pool heat pumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 3 hours ago, HughF said: And fwiw, as far as I can tell the only heat pumps on the market that don’t offer WC are the dream units from eBay, the occasional ground source unit, and swimming pool heat pumps. Not much UK market for them as WC is mandatory under MCS. FWIW Midea is what Good Energy fit under their scheme. EdF seem to use Daikin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanDee Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 1 hour ago, sharpener said: FWIW Midea is what Good Energy fit under their scheme. EdF seem to use Daikin. https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/how-we-know-our-heat-pumps-outperform-others/#:~:text=At this level the average,average performance across all seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted August 6, 2023 Author Share Posted August 6, 2023 23 hours ago, JohnMo said: I still think your choice of heat pump is overkill. Apologies if i misled you JohnMo, i meant as a brand. Not necessarily the 8kw model. I will take a close look at the smaller Midea's. However if 23 hours ago, HughF said: Be aware that they are over specified This line is accurate then perhaps not. But, if this datbase cannot be relied upon then what can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 37 minutes ago, Post and beam said: But, if this datbase cannot be relied upon then what can? Dunno. I checked and it has various errors for the Vaillant products I am interested in. Seems to be a version of the ENA spreadsheet which is also not very good. I don't imagine they do any testing, and rely on mfrs data which is only as good as the test houses they use. Maybe there is an EU database which is better but I have not looked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 This where you need to get decent data. https://www.eurovent-certification.com/ Note if the unit is made by company A and supplied to company B C D etc to put there own name plate on it, then the data is for company A (the original manufacturer). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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