Does this ASHP schematic work for cooling?

[LA3222]

33 minutes ago, PeterW said:

What’s your experience based on ..? 

Come on Peter, why don't you chill your beans and pick the Teddy up.

 

1 hour ago, LA3222 said:

As an aside, I don't dispute you are the SME here

My earlier comment before you threw the Teddy out.

 

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

when it comes to variant zone control and essentially you could get the upstairs controls asking for heat fighting the cooling downstairs

 

35 minutes ago, PeterW said:

The OP doesn’t have this ! Has UFH and Rads ..??? 

Your words mate, not mine. You threw in 'variant control' which has no bearing on this conversation, I challenged it as such.

 

37 minutes ago, PeterW said:

OP has pre plumbed unit with an LLH already on it - not a buffer…

My cylinder does too. All preplumbed mitsubishi cylinders do. What's your point? Just because it's there doesn't mean you need to use it hence why the connections are closed - if you really want to use it, you'd have to get the pipe cutter out.

 

I use a buffer - the LLH just gets a stiff ignoring. Really got no idea where you're going with this one.

 

40 minutes ago, PeterW said:

you are also indicating this is manual in your system, 99.9% of the client base we have need automatic and simple controls. 

Mine is only manual because I only use it sporadically. The cooling mode is programmable in exactly the same way that DHW and Heating is. It's all done through the control panel. It's as simple as any other programme timer - select the day and the 'on' & 'off' time. Think you can do 4 or 5 times for a 24hr period.

 

42 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Hypothetically*  if an end customer came to us and said I want heat, cool and DHW, then there are a whole new set of questions to ask before a pen even hits paper….

I dont dispute any of this. We seem to be having another one of those conversations where you are bringing everyone under the same general umbrella whilst the folks on this forum tend to be outliers in that the builds are much better and the requirements much easier to iron out. 

 

This has gone way off piste from what the OP was originally asking. I hope they can the answers they need from this.

[LA3222]

6 minutes ago, joth said:

So  I appreciate the chasm that can open between getting cooling to work, and getting it to work well.

I'm not sure where the issue lies (if it does). When I use cooling mode I tend to keep my eye on the temperatures. I monitor flow to keep an eye on what temperature is being supplied to the buffer, the return to see how much the temp is rising as it circulates. Also keep an eye on the tank temp to make sure nothing funky is going on. Tank stays at temp and drops as normal over time. Flow tends to be set to 15 but it drops down to 12 sometimes, return is normally around 3 degrees higher.

 

What's the issue that I'm not aware of which means the factory fitted divertor valve is not good enough🤔

[jfb]

Again I'd like to thank everyone's contribution to the thread - I am not trying to encourage disharmony and bitterness!

 

I have a package already arrived and waiting to install so I have to make do with what I have. Despite the limitations of pre plumbed cylinders that are not so obvious to the lay person Peter there are some advantages. Total cost of parts is around £4.8k and the reality for me is that if I had gone down the non pre plumbed cylinder I would be charged £750 more from my plumber and an unknown amount more from the electrician (and less confidence that it will all just work). Maybe one can get the cylinder itself a lot cheaper but that wasn't the case through Alto.

 

Anyway I am not really interested in more discussion about this side of things I am just after practical solutions so I will fire off a few more questions.

[jfb]

12 hours ago, LA3222 said:

My cylinder does too. All preplumbed mitsubishi cylinders do. What's your point? Just because it's there doesn't mean you need to use it hence why the connections are closed - if you really want to use it, you'd have to get the pipe cutter out.

Can i ask do you have a schematic of your set up LA?

Specifically how you circumvent the LLH?

 

Does your set up have 2 zones (UFH and rads?) or something else?

 

I have a manifold downstairs for the UFH and the cylinder upstairs. Where is the ideal position for a buffer - next to the cylinder or the manifold?

 

Regarding buffer - I asked before but can anyone say what size minimum I could use?

For reference it is a small 2 bed, 70m2 area internal, downstairs about 40m2 of UFH pipes at 100mm centres.

 

LA - was it installed so as to get the BUS grant or old RHI? As in did it have to be signed off by someone to qualify?

I ask because I imagine I might have issues getting Alto to sign off if I start circumventing the LLH.

 

Again sorry for all the questions and thanks for any replies!

[LA3222]

37 minutes ago, jfb said:

Can i ask do you have a schematic of your set up LA?

Specifically how you circumvent the LLH?

I will post some pics later for you.

 

37 minutes ago, jfb said:

Does your set up have 2 zones (UFH and rads?) or something else?

The way to think of mine is one zone which is the buffer tank. Heating comes on and it takes buffer tank to 45 degrees. During the heating season I set the heating to come in a few times to make sure that temp is maintained.

 

The other side of the coin I.e. the UFH works independently. They are connected to the buffer but it's a dumb connection. I.e. the UFH does not talk to the buffer, cylinder or ASHP. The UFH is controlled by the stats in the room. If they drop below the set temp they turn the UFH pumps on and start to circulate water, drawing from the buffer for the hot water.

 

The buffer just keeps doing its own thing, independtly making sure that it is maintenance at 45 degrees. There is a stat on that connected to the FTC which tells the ASHP it needs more heat.

 

37 minutes ago, jfb said:

have a manifold downstairs for the UFH and the cylinder upstairs. Where is the ideal position for a buffer - next to the cylinder or the manifold?

I have UFH upstairs and downstairs so a manifold in both locations. The buffer lives next to the cylinder. Think you can put it wherever you want. Just imagine a line from cylinder to buffer, buffer to manifold. Total length is same, you can shorten one, increase other, total length stays same.

 

37 minutes ago, jfb said:

Regarding buffer - I asked before but can anyone say what size minimum I could use?

For reference it is a small 2 bed, 70m2 area internal, downstairs about 40m2 of UFH pipes at 100mm centres.

My house is 280m2 and a 100l buffer. You could probably get away with half that size, best asking PeterW for advice there.

 

37 minutes ago, jfb said:

LA - was it installed so as to get the BUS grant or old RHI? As in did it have to be signed off by someone to qualify?

I ask because I imagine I might have issues getting Alto to sign off if I start circumventing the LLH

No RHI here. You aren't circumventing the LLH, it's a choice to use the LLH - they come with the ends sealed up, to use it you have to cut them off.  The only open connections are the ones I listed above.

 

In the pic you can see the LLH - the three red circles show the capped pipes.

 

Yellow shows the return connection to the ASHP.

 

Blue shows the return from the heating (buffer tank in my case)

 

I'll take more pics later.

[LA3222]

Just found the thread where I went through all of this many moons ago, may be worth a read.

 

 

[jfb]

Just now, LA3222 said:

Just found the thread where I went through all of this many moons ago, may be worth a read.

 

great - ill take a good look later and try and digest it all!