Is this a sensible quote for a flat roof?

[94JDH]

17 hours ago, MrTWales said:

 

Thanks, that is useful. Just to be clear, you are saying that they have got the quote wrong by including the VAT? That doesn't fill me with much confidence if true.

 

Ah I see, that makes sense. I did Google it and it seemed like it may clip on somehow but without more info I'm not sure how they could reckon on penatrating the roof or slipping on the sides. It really does seem like what they use for ballast is always ugly looking!

 

Trust me, I'm trying to get more quotes! Most of the time I've not even got a reply, but one guy did some around and another is coming on Monday so I may end up with three which would be OK. One firm, who are 45 mins away, said that they are so busy in the local area that they don't cover wider afield at the moment. Baring in mind that this is on a flat roof (so no scaffolding) and I assume it's one day's work (?), that shows how much work this sector is getting right now. 

Yes its wrong, could be a clerical mistake, but by keeping it separate it looks intentional.

 

I'm also having an install on two flat roof areas using the Renusol FS10 system as I didn't like the bins - its still ballast type and I've just fitted an EPDM rubber roof (both bow EPDM) so didn't want any fixings through it.

Edited May 25, 2022 by 94JDH

[MrTWales]

12 minutes ago, 94JDH said:

Yes its wrong, could be a clerical mistake, but by keeping it separate it looks intentional.

 

I'm also having an install on two flat roof areas using the Renusol FS10 system as I didn't like the bins - its still ballast type and I've just fitted an EPDM rubber roof (both bow EPDM) so didn't want any fixings through it.

 

Thanks, I actually asked about it (the VAT) on the day they sent the quote but they have not come back. It doesn't look great really.

 

The other guy who visited said that they would use a ValkPro+ L10 system, and they look quite nice.

[SteamyTea]

14 minutes ago, 94JDH said:

I've just fitted an EPDM rubber roof (both bow EPDM) so didn't want any fixings through it.

Is this your biggest problem in choosing a mounting system?

[94JDH]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Is this your biggest problem in choosing a mounting system?

I know there are now systems which will provide seals on fixed mounting systems - with a flat roof that always worries me with risk of failure. The main reason for the FS10 was to maximise the area available on an EW configuration. It's perfectly aligned EW and would take South facing panels, but due to shading from each row of panels, the greater number of EW panels offsets the efficiency lost compared to fewer South Facing.

[94JDH]

2 hours ago, MrTWales said:

 

Thanks, I actually asked about it (the VAT) on the day they sent the quote but they have not come back. It doesn't look great really.

 

The other guy who visited said that they would use a ValkPro+ L10 system, and they look quite nice.

Yes that systems looks similar, and the ballast looks neat as well.

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, 94JDH said:

I know there are now systems which will provide seals on fixed mounting systems - with a flat roof that always worries me with risk of failure

Yes, a GRP roof, easy to attach and seal to.

20 minutes ago, 94JDH said:

offsets the efficiency lost compared to fewer South Facing.

I think the original FiT system put, through financial return, too much emphasis on maximum yields.

The practicalities of using generation should be considered carefully. Battery storage is a way of not having to think too hard about this, but is really a failure of design contingency system.

[MrTWales]

37 minutes ago, 94JDH said:

Yes that systems looks similar, and the ballast looks neat as well.

 

I know that the rafters inmy case are 7 x 2 Kiln Dried, spaced every 40cm, which seems strong but I really wish it wasn't just ballast. My roof is fibreglass, so has this thin paint coating on top and I've got no idea whether something can stick to it without screwing through it. The panels are pretty heavy as it is.

[94JDH]

40 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Yes, a GRP roof, easy to attach and seal to.

I think the original FiT system put, through financial return, too much emphasis on maximum yields.

The practicalities of using generation should be considered carefully. Battery storage is a way of not having to think too hard about this, but is really a failure of design contingency system.

I've gone with 18 panels (7.2kW) feeding two 3.6kW inverters - each with an 9.5kW battery. Benefit from being able to charge both in the winter months with cheap 4 hour window.

[94JDH]

23 minutes ago, MrTWales said:

 

I know that the rafters inmy case are 7 x 2 Kiln Dried, spaced every 40cm, which seems strong but I really wish it wasn't just ballast. My roof is fibreglass, so has this thin paint coating on top and I've got no idea whether something can stick to it without screwing through it. The panels are pretty heavy as it is.

Those would support a good load (depending on the width of the garage though). I ended up replacing a few sheets of 18mm ply where I had a leak and then completely overlayed a further 18mm OSB3 to provide a good adhering surface for the EPDM glue. I built a garden room gym a few years ago and the EPDM was ideal.

[MrTWales]

18 minutes ago, 94JDH said:

Those would support a good load (depending on the width of the garage though). I ended up replacing a few sheets of 18mm ply where I had a leak and then completely overlayed a further 18mm OSB3 to provide a good adhering surface for the EPDM glue. I built a garden room gym a few years ago and the EPDM was ideal.

 

Nice. The width for me is 4.6m interally so I guess the joists (if I'm using the correct word) are around 5m apart.  I've got no issue with the weight if it's above the edges but I'm the sort of person who gets nervous hanging a picture on a plasterboard wall so having lots of weight in the middle worries me a bit. I'd hope that if they are connected rows then you can load of the ends though so the walls take most of the weight.

[94JDH]

26 minutes ago, MrTWales said:

 

Nice. The width for me is 4.6m interally so I guess the joists (if I'm using the correct word) are around 5m apart.  I've got no issue with the weight if it's above the edges but I'm the sort of person who gets nervous hanging a picture on a plasterboard wall so having lots of weight in the middle worries me a bit. I'd hope that if they are connected rows then you can load of the ends though so the walls take most of the weight.

If they are spaced over 400mm centres, the width is similar to mine and should be fine for the loading (do you have bracings between each joist of 400mm, approximately 3 across that width?)

[MrTWales]

2 minutes ago, 94JDH said:

If they are spaced over 400mm centres, the width is similar to mine and should be fine for the loading (do you have bracings between each joist of 400mm, approximately 3 across that width?)

I think so, based on this picture. This is all helpful stuff for me so thanks for the info.

 

That is a lot of battery storage you will have. I just wish they were cheaper and smaller. Depending on what the quote I was thinking of something like 5-6kW. I work from home so this helps a bit I guess with usage patterns.

[94JDH]

51 minutes ago, MrTWales said:

I think so, based on this picture. This is all helpful stuff for me so thanks for the info.

 

That is a lot of battery storage you will have. I just wish they were cheaper and smaller. Depending on what the quote I was thinking of something like 5-6kW. I work from home so this helps a bit I guess with usage patterns.

Should be fine - I have electric underfloor heating in the kitchen/diner/hall and utility and keeps the house much warmer than the gas boiler when combined with my wood burner. So bigger batteries are more useful to me in the long run. My total price all in is 14K.

[MrTWales]

Given what I thought that batteries of that size cost that doesn't seem like a bad price at all.

 

I have the super optimistic thought that one day you will be able to import / export from the grid at similar-ish rates. Yes there are always efficiency issues no doubt but it really seems like this should happen for the greater good, and in this case there is less reason to have batteries unless you wanted to be off grid for parts of the year. Can't see it happening any time soon though.

[Dillsue]

7 hours ago, MrTWales said:

 

Nice. The width for me is 4.6m interally so I guess the joists (if I'm using the correct word) are around 5m apart.  I've got no issue with the weight if it's above the edges but I'm the sort of person who gets nervous hanging a picture on a plasterboard wall so having lots of weight in the middle worries me a bit. I'd hope that if they are connected rows then you can load of the ends though so the walls take most of the weight.

Worth checking where all the weight is going to be. I dont see any structural grading stamps on any of the timber(c16/c20 etc) and a quick peek at floor joist span tables says 7x2 is good up to around 4m, when graded timber is used.

[MrTWales]

1 hour ago, Dillsue said:

Worth checking where all the weight is going to be. I dont see any structural grading stamps on any of the timber(c16/c20 etc) and a quick peek at floor joist span tables says 7x2 is good up to around 4m, when graded timber is used.

 

Thanks, I did sift around and what I saw made it seem OK for the build but they wouldn't reckon on all that stuff on top I guess. I just know all the stuff was bought from Selco!

 

I really hope that they can add any weight near the edges only. If the mounting brackets are connected then I can't see why not, but I may be missing something.

[MrTWales]

 

On 25/05/2022 at 09:46, 94JDH said:

Yes its wrong, could be a clerical mistake, but by keeping it separate it looks intentional.

 

I'm also having an install on two flat roof areas using the Renusol FS10 system as I didn't like the bins - its still ballast type and I've just fitted an EPDM rubber roof (both bow EPDM) so didn't want any fixings through it.

 

They just got back to me re my question about VAT and say this:

 

"The VAT-Zero rule applies to the solar PV installations, and not on the equipment.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-the-vat-treatment-of-the-installation-of-energy-saving-materials-in-in-great-britain "

 

This doesn't seem correct to me?
 

[Dillsue]

VAT notice 708/6 seems to suggest temporary zero rate is for labour and materials 

[MrTWales]

 

33 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

VAT notice 708/6 seems to suggest temporary zero rate is for labour and materials 

 

That's what everyone else seems to think! I called HMRC and they just looked up and directed to that note, but couldn't say anything else. 

 

The actual regulation is https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/361/article/7/made and this includes the line "Relevant supplies of energy-saving materials by a person who installs those materials in residential accommodation in England and Wales and Scotland."

 

This ties in with comments online in that you pay VAT on a battery if it's installed on existing solar panels as you need the install + materials to get the zero rate.

 

They have just got it wrong I think in that they surely couldn't have just been dishonest?

 

[Dillsue]

The VAT notice only refers to PV panels, cabling, control panel and inverter. No mention of batteries so I dont know if they should be zero rated even if installed with a new system??

 

Probably want to refer the guys charging VAT on the materials to the VAT notice??

[94JDH]

2 hours ago, MrTWales said:

 

 

That's what everyone else seems to think! I called HMRC and they just looked up and directed to that note, but couldn't say anything else. 

 

The actual regulation is https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/361/article/7/made and this includes the line "Relevant supplies of energy-saving materials by a person who installs those materials in residential accommodation in England and Wales and Scotland."

 

This ties in with comments online in that you pay VAT on a battery if it's installed on existing solar panels as you need the install + materials to get the zero rate.

 

They have just got it wrong I think in that they surely couldn't have just been dishonest?

 

 

43 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

The VAT notice only refers to PV panels, cabling, control panel and inverter. No mention of batteries so I dont know if they should be zero rated even if installed with a new system??

 

Probably want to refer the guys charging VAT on the materials to the VAT notice??

Batteries are VAT exempt if fitted alongside PV install, HMRC forums admin confirmed here for reference:

 

https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/vat/543eb674-79af-ec11-826d-00155d9736d7

 

And my quote and deposit paid also references no VAT

[MrTWales]

Thanks, the HMRC wording was poor imo in several places. 

 

They updated the quote for a battery, which was £9.6k if I take out the vat. This is 12 x 400w panels + 5.4kw battery + the inverter and all other bits. It seems way way more than your quote given the two larger batteries and more panels. 

[Dillsue]

26 minutes ago, 94JDH said:

 

Batteries are VAT exempt if fitted alongside PV install, HMRC forums admin confirmed here for reference:

 

https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/vat/543eb674-79af-ec11-826d-00155d9736d7

 

And my quote and deposit paid also references no VAT

Thats a handy forum

[94JDH]

25 minutes ago, MrTWales said:

Thanks, the HMRC wording was poor imo in several places. 

 

They updated the quote for a battery, which was £9.6k if I take out the vat. This is 12 x 400w panels + 5.4kw battery + the inverter and all other bits. It seems way way more than your quote given the two larger batteries and more panels. 

I probably fell lucky with timings, just before the big rush of people wanting quotes and prices rising, I'll message you the details of the installer when I get back if that  helps you?

[MrTWales]

Thanks, it may help to see their website or something even if they are too far away and probably charging a lot more now. 

 

I would have thought that the panels + inverter + bits + two huge batteries would cost more than the quote but clearly not! The whole battery cost is a mystery to me as the list of costs I've seen seem too high (eg Which magazine have a list of batteries and approx price).