Part Q build regs 'Secured by Design'

[pauldoc]

I think this will apply more to people just starting building or ordering windows now.

Has anyone had an issue with the updated Part Q to build regs that applies to windows.

They came into effect 1st Oct 2015. I have been informed by my  build inspector I have to conform to this which I get.

The problem seems to be that quite a lot of window companies are not up to speed with it. It doesn't apply to replacement windows but does to new builds....Great!

You basically have to have windows with a PAS 2012 cert to comply. I wanted  to order some Ideal combi 'Frame IC' windows but have been informed they wont be certified until next March.

Even though the windows will be the same as they are now, but haven't had the lab cert. They are quality triple glazed ali clad windows (within our budget) which is very annoying as we will have to compromise with another supplier now.

Any words of advice to get around this?

 

[PeterW]

Key there is you have to "conform". I think we've discussed previously that BRegs are only guidance, the stat decs are the law. 

 

If you get the manufacturer to sell you the windows on the guarantee the design will be certified by date x,  as long as date x is before the sign off by building control is finalized. Notification from them that the design hasn't changed prior to certification should be acceptable to the BCO. 

[pauldoc]

That was my thinking Peter. I haven't checked that with BCO yet. However Ideal Combi advise against it as the certification is on the order confirmation. it could be that maybe although they say it will be certified by march , they cant guarantee it. What do you mean by 'stat decs' ?

[PeterW]

If you look at a BRegs document the stat decs are the bits in the blue boxes.  The rest is guidance on how to meet it 

[pauldoc]

i'll take a look thanks

 

[PeterW]

So this is from the Part Q Regs

 

Design of secure windows

2.2 Windows should be made to a design that has been shown by test to meet the security requirements of British Standards publication PAS 24:2012.

NOTE: Windows satisfying other standards that provide similar or better performance are also acceptable. These standards include:

• STS204Issue3:2012
• LPS1175Issue7:2010securityrating1
• LPS2081Issue1:2015securityratingA.
Further advice is available in Secured by Design’s New Homes 2014. 

 

So basically you can use any standard that is similar or better to those listed. 

 

This is the link to the New Homes 2014 document. 

http://www.securedbydesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/SBD-NewHomes14-lowres.pdf

 

What is also interesting is that the legal requirement is this :

 

PART Q SECURITY Unauthorised access Q1 Reasonable provision must be made to resist unauthorised access to— (a) any dwelling; and (b) any part of a building from which access can be gained to a at within the building.

 

 

Reasonable is the key here - using a non UK security standard that has elements the same as those above would be difficult for a BCO to turn down as there is nothing prescriptive in the regulations. 

 

 

 

[pauldoc]

This is what I found to Peter. My BCO has said basically Windows have to have the pas 24:2012 standard. The windows I chose haven't got that certificate yet, it's due next March (hopefully). I am waiting for the documents from ideal combi that has the glazing and locks spec to send over to him. Do you think that would be sufficient or it absolutely has the have the pas/secured by design cert? The windows haven't got any of the other cert numbers as far as I know. I'm not sure what you would do if you wanted bespoke handmade windows now? 

[le-cerveau]

Legally, you only have to make 'reasonable provision', do if you are prepared to stand your ground and prove that you have made 'reasonable provision' the go for it, but you would also be potentially alienating the BCO.  It is up to you if you wish to fight them but in the eyes of the law there is very little that they can make you do!

(Standby the lawyers)

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, pauldoc said:

This is what I found to Peter. My BCO has said basically Windows have to have the pas 24:2012 standard. The windows I chose haven't got that certificate yet, it's due next March (hopefully). I am waiting for the documents from ideal combi that has the glazing and locks spec to send over to him. Do you think that would be sufficient or it absolutely has the have the pas/secured by design cert? The windows haven't got any of the other cert numbers as far as I know. I'm not sure what you would do if you wanted bespoke handmade windows now? 

 

Ok you need to firmly ask where in the regulations it specifies that as a mandatory requirement as it's not in the green box. 

 

Be firm but fair with the BCO as he's not playing by the rules....

[pauldoc]

OK  I will have another chat with him.

I did put a call in this morning. He did hold his hands up and say he didn't know the answers to the new regs as they were new and issues/questions hadn't arisen yet.

When I put to him about 'hand made' windows now not being allowed then, he did say that was a good point and he said he honestly didn't know the answer. I don't think he is being a jobs worth. I think he is trying to help and get the answer I want but it is taking a long time! I will point out the 'requirement' to him and see what he says

[le-cerveau]

This would appear to be the sensible way, ask searching questions, guide him in the right direction but be prepared to stand your ground.

[Monty Gerhardy]

On 10/12/2016 at 23:18, PeterW said:

Reasonable is the key here - using a non UK security standard that has elements the same as those above would be difficult for a BCO to turn down as there is nothing prescriptive in the regulations. 

 

Without having tested a window (to a recognised standard) it would be difficult to demonstrate that reasonable provision has been made to resist unauthorised entry by way of the window, or door.  PAS24:2012 (and even the current 2016 version) is the least demanding of the standards mentioned for manufacturers to meet.

[PeterW]

Yes but we are talking about non-UK manufacture. 

 

As there is no equivalent of a CE mark for a window that is used across the EU, then if a manufacturer can show they meet a similar domestic standard to PAS24 or the like then it would be reasonable to expect that it would be acceptable in the U.K.  Experience shows a lot of TUV standards are much higher than the old BS equivalents and this has caused some issues with moving to ISO standards.