Alex Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 Hi All, I've been told that to solve the issue I have I need to install an accumulator. Basically if you're in a shower and someone flushes the loo and then turn on basin tap whilst cistern filling the shower pretty much stops! The problem I've got is that I don't really have any space to accommodate a decent sized accumulator. (I've been told a 400/500ltr would be about the right size) Does anyone have any advice on installing accumulators outside? or are there ones made specifically for external installation? I've googled but not come up with much so far so I thought I'd try you guys! :-) Any / all advice or alternative options welcome as need to solve this quite soon as I'm getting loads of grief about it! Cheers A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 Our accumulators are outside, in a small insulated shed. I added a small tubular heater under them, wired to a frost stat that comes on at 4°C, but I don't think the heater has ever come on. In practice the high heat capacity of the water in the accumulators, together with the fairly high turnover of new water coming in at ~8°C, means that the risk of freezing is pretty low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 @Alex what are the options for rerouting pipework ..?? ideally you need a balanced hot and cold from a control set, and then prior to this you can tee off the toilets etc to a dedicated low volume flow. This can be done either with a restriction at the beginning or use Ballofix valves at each cistern to slow the fill. Do you have restrictors on the taps too..?? Can help if you put low flow heads on them as it doesn’t affect the shower as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 7, 2019 Author Share Posted June 7, 2019 47 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Our accumulators are outside, in a small insulated shed. I added a small tubular heater under them, wired to a frost stat that comes on at 4°C, but I don't think the heater has ever come on. In practice the high heat capacity of the water in the accumulators, together with the fairly high turnover of new water coming in at ~8°C, means that the risk of freezing is pretty low. thanks @JSHarris I'm assuming you've also lagged the pipes as the go into / out of the shed to house? This would be an option as I have a space next to air source heat pump that won't be seen from any windows and the mains in to house come in just the opposite of the house wall at this point. Did you just buy a off the shelf shed an insulate it (floor/wall/roof) or did you build a custom one? Just thinking what might be easier/cost effective! 6 minutes ago, PeterW said: @Alex what are the options for rerouting pipework ..?? ideally you need a balanced hot and cold from a control set, and then prior to this you can tee off the toilets etc to a dedicated low volume flow. This can be done either with a restriction at the beginning or use Ballofix valves at each cistern to slow the fill. Do you have restrictors on the taps too..?? Can help if you put low flow heads on them as it doesn’t affect the shower as much. @PeterW pipework is all done so only options I have is in the small room where the cylinder is and which is where the mains comes into the house as house before it disappears off to bathrooms/wc/kitchen/laundry/etc. Yes have restrictors on taps. I haven't thought about changing shower head though to be a low flow option... that would help a bit. I think I will need the accumulator option though as have turf going down and will need to water that and that's going to play havoc as our outside taps are basically spurred off the kitchen and laundry room feeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 I arranged the pipes to come in from under the shed, through ducts, so they are pretty well protected, but just lagging them well should be OK I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) I,m probably being thick I,m sure you will correct me ,why would you need an accumulator of 500litres-- and by that you mean a tank with a diaphram in it to keep pressure up as you use this stored volume ? if your water pipes in the house were of a large enough bore to start with and your water pressure was high enough ,there would be no problem or is it a mains supply sizing problem as well. stands to reason if you trying to tun 2 or 3 outlets supplied by 15mm pipes then they need to be connected to much large diameter pipe so flow rate and pressure does not drop. a 22mm pipe will not run 2 X 15mm at same flow as it can run one,so pressure will drop --28mm pipe could -- not many will be using 28mm as ring main for cold or hot supply in house EG large pipe with manifold where the 3 smaller ones come from -,not just teeing 3 outlets off one 15mm pipe and expect them all to flow full at same time . a booster pump to lift your mains pressure in the house ? or just a booster pump on the shower ? Could this just be a function of the trend to use smaller pipes than people used to use ,and because no one uses gravity cold water tanks any more if you had toilets etc connected to a gravity tank in loft there is no problem a good reason to use a rainwater harvesting tank and pump for toilets +washing machine+ garden hoses etc plus less metered water usage for those in England Edited June 7, 2019 by scottishjohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 23 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: I,m probably being thick I,m sure you will correct me ,why would you need an accumulator of 500litres-- and by that you mean a tank with a diaphram in it to keep pressure up as you use this stored volume ? if your water pipes in the house were of a large enough bore to start with and your water pressure was high enough ,there would be no problem or is it a mains supply sizing problem as well. stands to reason if you trying to tun 2 or 3 outlets supplied by 15mm pipes then they need to be connected to much large diameter pipe so flow rate and pressure does not drop. a 22mm pipe will not run 2 X 15mm at same flow as it can run one,so pressure will drop --28mm pipe could -- not many will be using 28mm as ring main for cold or hot supply in house EG large pipe with manifold where the 3 smaller ones come from -,not just teeing 3 outlets off one 15mm pipe and expect them all to flow full at same time . a booster pump to lift your mains pressure in the house ? or just a booster pump on the shower ? Could this just be a function of the trend to use smaller pipes than people used to use ,and because no one uses gravity cold water tanks any more if you had toilets etc connected to a gravity tank in loft there is no problem a good reason to use a rainwater harvesting tank and pump for toilets +washing machine+ garden hoses etc plus less metered water usage for those in England A 500 litre accumulator will store a bit less than 250 litres of water, as accumulators are sized on total volume, and a bit over half the volume is air in the bladder. We have two 300 litre accumulators in parallel, just because a 500 litre one was to large a diameter to fit in the space we had available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 7, 2019 Author Share Posted June 7, 2019 37 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: I,m probably being thick I,m sure you will correct me ,why would you need an accumulator of 500litres-- and by that you mean a tank with a diaphram in it to keep pressure up as you use this stored volume ? if your water pipes in the house were of a large enough bore to start with and your water pressure was high enough ,there would be no problem or is it a mains supply sizing problem as well. stands to reason if you trying to tun 2 or 3 outlets supplied by 15mm pipes then they need to be connected to much large diameter pipe so flow rate and pressure does not drop. a 22mm pipe will not run 2 X 15mm at same flow as it can run one,so pressure will drop --28mm pipe could -- not many will be using 28mm as ring main for cold or hot supply in house EG large pipe with manifold where the 3 smaller ones come from -,not just teeing 3 outlets off one 15mm pipe and expect them all to flow full at same time . a booster pump to lift your mains pressure in the house ? or just a booster pump on the shower ? Could this just be a function of the trend to use smaller pipes than people used to use ,and because no one uses gravity cold water tanks any more if you had toilets etc connected to a gravity tank in loft there is no problem a good reason to use a rainwater harvesting tank and pump for toilets +washing machine+ garden hoses etc plus less metered water usage for those in England as @JSHarris said above the sizing is to get around actual capacity of around 200 to 250ltr. this would give me about 15 mins (ish) where we could be running 2 showers at the same time plus the odd basin/kitchen tap. Key goal is catering for morning rush when kids are getting ready and we're also trying to get going at the same time. the main plumbing runs are all 28mm and then drops down to 15mm in each bathroom for cistern/shower/basin. I have 32mm MDPE coming in from mains. I have 15lpm @ 2.8bar incoming from mains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 adding a pressure boosting pump could be cheaper and simpler to fit than a large accumulator ? worth checking out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: adding a pressure boosting pump could be cheaper and simpler to fit than a large accumulator ? worth checking out Still needs an accumulator on the pump output, plus, if connected to the mains water supply it must be fitted with a means of ensuring that the pump cannot reduce the pressure in the supply pipe (to comply with the water regs, for obvious reasons associated with contamination risk). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 7, 2019 Author Share Posted June 7, 2019 I'm pretty much open to any options that solve the problem, it's then a question of space/location and the usual one of Cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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