Dave and Helen

Thanks ProDave, I didn't think my question would draw so many related questions. I've been reading about Riparian ownership (all new to me) which seems to address a lot of my concerns. That said, there is one section under "Do I have any rights as a riparian landowner", that states: To receive a flow of water in its natural state, without undue interference in its quantity or quality. I guess this is down to interpretation, but if the intent is discharge the output from a modern water treatment plant, no more than 2 cubic metre a day and to also direct water run off from the plot into the brook, wouldn't this be in breach of their rights as regards quantity? I know there are a couple of culverts downstream before the outlet reaches the reservoir, again if we're increasing the potential quantity, should I be concerned that these culverts maybe to narrow? I'm encouraged by your response, saying that we only need permission from the land owner who's land we'll need to cross, but is this written anywhere that I can refer to as I have a feeling there may be some objection? Thanks again Dave C

Hi, I'm hoping someone can shed some light on an issue we can see looming. We need to install a water treatment plant for a new build project, that's currently waiting on planning. We thought we'd get cracking and so far have all the utilities sorted, with the exception of drainage. The plot has no access to a main sewer, the ground is not suited to a filtration field ( the percolation test was a disaster) so we've been investigating an option to discharge into a brook that runs the along the opposite side of the road to our plot. The road is a single track that leads to a large house at the end of our road, but it is adopted. Then comes the issue... the brook that we have an eye on, runs along the edge of a number of fields, before crossing some ground owned by Severn Trent before finally discharging into their reservoir. With the exception of a few culverts, the brook is open all the way to the reservoir. According to the Land Registry, the fields I mentioned are owned by three different individuals. My question is, in order to run the outlet from our proposed, modern all singing and dancing water treatment plant into the brook, I'd clearly need permission from highways to cross the road and the land owner to cross the couple of feet to the brook. However, would I also, legally, need to seek permission from all the land owners who's land the brook crosses on it's way to the reservoir? As the output is less than two cubic metres, I don't believe I need a permit from the Environment Agency, but if I do then we can apply. My concern is whether or not these various land owners have a right to know what I'm doing, the right to object and the right to charge me a ransom tax in order to allow it. We're planning to install a rain water harvesting system, but will need to route excessive surface water away from the plot, so the brook again seems like the ideal option, after all that's what it's there for. If anyone has come across a similar issue, I'd welcome any feedback. Kind regards Dave C

Thanks for all the feedback. I think the number of different responses just goes to show how much of a grey area this really is. I guess it depends on the local authority. I have asked our planning officer and this is the response we received: You are correct, what does or doesn't constitute 'commencement of development is indeed a grey area and numerous cases have been argued in the courts! Each development /site is different, however generally we would advise that excavating some ground for the purposes of digging foundations would be acceptable. I would advise that your building control officer document this for your future reference. The Planning Authority would not normally issue confirmation that a development had lawfully commenced, the discharge of any pre commencement conditions and the undertaking of some form of 'development documented by a building control officer would generally suffice. Fun fun fun... after discussing this with our building control officer earlier today, we've decided that we'll expose the footings to the side of the two existing structure on site, both of which we'll be keeping renovating and incorporating into the new build, for the purpose of documenting the existing foundations so the new foundations can be designed. He's then going to pop over in the afternoon and document the findings. The fact we already have a 4 ton excavator permanently on site, may also help, I'll make sure it's in the photos. Thanks again for all the feedback. D

Hi, Hoping to gain some consensus of opinion, on what constitutes a significant start once all planning conditions on a development have been discharged. We purchased our plot with planning permission in place, but have no intention of building this design. Conscious that the 3 years were up on the 8th August this year, we’ve been battling with our local authority ( South Derbyshire District Council ) since May to discharge the conditions on the original scheme, so as not to lose the planning consent that’s in place. Our intention is to submit a new planning application in the next couple of months. We finally received a decision on the discharge of conditions last Tuesday. I understand we now need to demonstrate that we’ve made a ‘significant start’ before this Saturday, the 8th August when the planning consent expires, but there seems to be a lot of confusion over what constitutes a significant start. The obvious option is to dig some foundations, a 3 meter trench and throw come concrete in, then invite our building control officer to come take a look and document it. These have to be relevant to the existing planning scheme, but as we’re not building that scheme, we’re keen to look for an alternative, equally acceptable option. So... 1. could we dig a trial hole for the purpose of testing the subsoil to enable our structural engineer to design an appropriate foundation scheme? 2. as there is an existing brick building on site that we intend renovating and incorporating into our new scheme, could we expose the foundations in one corner, again with the intention of checking the existing foundations? 3. the single story brick building we intend retaining and renovating has a number of blocked up windows, would removing the blocks from the windows signify a start? There seems to a lot of confusion over this subject, not helped by our planning officer stating that it’s different site by site,. Can anyone offer any guidance on this? Kind regards Dave C

Hi, That’s an ingenious idea, but I don’t feel we’d have the room for that. We’re keen on the idea of rainwater harvesting, but need to investigate the cost and practicality. We’ve had some initial conversations and have the room to bury a tank, but I don’t know what size we’d need or the cost as yet. Capturing and reusing rainwater seems a great way of dealing with surface water, whilst also reducing our water bills, with only the excess running to a soak away. Aside from the cost of the tank and additional plumbing, are there any downsides? Dave C

Peter thanks for following this up. We're already speaking to MPC Services, now part of the Haigh Group, they've been very helpful and I'm sure we'll be looking to use them for the treatment system. Get what you're saying about water flows downhill, guess I'm being careful as I want to be sure this won't be a problem going forward. Our site is on Bog Lane, Melbourne so there's a clue in the name that indicates potential issues with the removal of surface water. Appreciate your feedback. Dave C

Hi, We're still in the planning stage of our build and whilst we wait for planning concern to come through, we're looking to address the drainage needs on site. We're too far away to enable us to connect to mains sewage, so need to install a water treatment system. The land doesn't seem to be acceptable for a drainfield, so we're looking to disharge to a nearby ditch. We've contacted the Environment Agency, but they've recommended we speak to a drainage consultant. As we also need to address rainwater harvesting and run off, this seems like an ideal time to address all of this together. So... can anyone recommend a good, experienced drainage consultant who can look at our overall needs? Our plot is just outside Melbourne in Derbyshire, so someone in the local area would be great. Many thanks for reading!

I've decided to give the last company who came to empty it a shout, to see if they can advise further. They seemed to suggest it was working ok, but as there are no records, who knows. It's going to be replaced anyway, I just need to negotiate with our neighbours about how we achieve this. Thanks for your input Dave C

Hi, I’m trying to determine if the waste system we have on our building plot is a septic tank or a cesspit. The property is an old water pumping station, which we believe was build in the 30s, or possibly earlier. There is only one apparent chamber, one manhole, which leads into a circular brick structure which holds in the region of 3500L. The tank is currently only used by our neighbours, who live in what was the engineers cottage. Severn Trent sold the cottage off a long time ago, which is now separated from our plot by a brick wall. We need to work out how, legally to best deal with this with our neighbours, but could first do with knowing if it’s a septic tank or cesspit. The land registry state it’s a cesspit, but other documents mention a septic tank. Looking at a modern septic tank, they have more than one chamber, each with their own access hatch. So it would seem we have a cesspit, but it’s only emptied every 8 to 12 months, which seems a longtime for a cesspit. Can anyone shed any light on this? Kind regards Dave C

Just following up on my last post. I met with Dean from MPC Services, nice guy and he's going to provide me with a quote for a new water treatment system. We've always said that we were going to obtain at least three quotes for all the major work we're looking to undertake on our build, so would anyone be able to offer any suggestions of other local companies, ideally ones they've had personal experience with? Dave C

Thanks Peter, i’ll give them a call.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've searched for MBC Services and drainage etc, but couldn't find an obvious web site. Do you have a web site for them or a number? Have you personal experience of using them? Can anyone recommend a couple more... always like to speak and obtain a quote from a few. Thanks again... Dave C

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll be sure to do my homework. Dave C

We've already raised this issue with Building Control (independent, not local council) and they have suggested it be replaced, although I've yet to have a meaningful conversation with them about it. I'm OK with changing out the tank, but not to happy about the though of digging up the existing infiltration field (if that's what it's called). I've no idea how far this extends and it would have predated Severn Trent's ownership of the property. It's been hard enough trying to get information from them about the pipework on site, that related to the old workings, so I'm pretty sure they'd have no clue about the septic tank. If we were to install a bang up to date treatment plant, could we not continue to use the existing infiltration field? I'd assume even the most up to date system would still need one? We wouldn't have enough land to install a new system and leave the old to the sole use of our neighbours, so it would need to cater for both. My other concern is that our neighbours would expect us to pay for it all, after all, the system that's currently in place is working just fine for them. Some negotiation needed I feel. I'm wondering if I could spin a yarn around the need to replace it due to the change in policy, but it looks like this only applies to septic tanks that discharge into water courses. Dave C

Hi, We're currently waiting for planning to come through the conversion of an old Severn Trent pump house and tank, but whilst we're waiting, we're starting to plan some of the required ground work. One of the issues we need to address relates to an old septic tank. The tank is currently used solely by our neighbours, who's house use to be where the waterworks engineer use to live back in the day. Now the pump house and tank are a separate plot, sold off by Severn Trent, we have the pleasure of housing the tank which our neighbours use and have access to in our front yard. In developing the house, we will need to utilise the same septic tank as there is no mains drainage. We've previously had the tank emptied and inspected, together with a camera inspection of the pipework. The tank is a circular brick construction, with a flat bottom that we believe holds 3,500 litres, this is how much the form had written on it the last time it was emptied and it was full. The tank doesn't empty into a ditch, but we believe drains into a septic field of some type. Unfortunately we have no information on this. The company that emptied the tank for us, County Drains in Coalville, recommended that we continue to use the same tank where possible as it appeared to be working perfectly OK despite it's age, rather than look at installing a modern 'plastic' alternative, as in the engineer's opinion the old ones are much better. Our concern now is whether the tank is big enough to accommodate the requirements of two houses. Our neighbours house has six bedrooms and we're looking to build a property with four bedrooms. I understand you can calculate the required tank volume from this, but I guess I was more interested in knowing: 1. can two houses share the same tank and if so, are there any restrictions around this? I guess as our neighbours have a right of access to the plot for the purpose of emptying the tank, we need to continue to support their needs. 2. could we make the existing tank bigger, i.e go down or is this simply a non starter? ( not a job I'd be volunteering for ) 3. if we were to replace it, I'm assuming it would be less hassle to retain a single tank for both properties rather than ask them to get there own... think there would also be some legal implications as well and bad feeling if we took this route. 4. should we look at a more modern water treatment option rather than just a replacement septic tank and if so, which options are available to us. Would anyone have any contacts in the local area, Melbourne in Derbyshire, that they would recommend we speak to in order to get some advice and pricing? Many thanks Dave C

Thank you for all the kind messages. It is exciting and will be a challenge, but one thing's for sure, we won't be applying to be on Grand Designs. I remember looking up 'What do you get for being on Grand Designs' and someone came back with the comment, nothing, but you get a really nice video of your house being built! The new plans have yet to be submitted to planning, so I'll hold off posting any until we know where we are with this. Starting a blog of the build sounds like a nice idea and I'll also take a look at https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/profile/206-jamiehamy/ blog to get an idea. Dave C

I'm hoping this site will be both a source of inspiration and a shoulder to cry on over the coming months, if not years. My partner Helen and I purchased a disused Severn Trent Pump House and DSR (Distribution Storage Reservoir - great big concrete water tank) back in February 2018. The half acre plot came with full planning consent to renovate the existing brick Pump House, build a new section to link the Pump House to the concrete water tank and to convert the tank into living accommodation. It was a very contemporary, flat roof design, not really us, so we've spent the last year coming up with a new scheme and starting to clear the site ready for the build, once planning have given their seal of approval. This is the first time Helen and I have taken on a project like this. We've both undertaken extensions and small alterations in our separate lives, before we met, but nothing on this scale. Whilst a slow start, this has given us time to think. I can't count the number of visits we've made to the plot with a picnic in hand, to sit on the grass roof of the tank and get a feel for the place and to imagine what it would be like to live there. We've also had time to look into the history of the site and helped by John Simpson from Severn Trent Reunited - http://www.st-reunited.org.uk, we've been able to find out quite a lot. We've even had the pleasure of meeting the children, who's father worked there and his father before him. Some of the old photos have also been passed on, a lot of which are on the reunited web site, but I'll post some of these as we progress. I've attached a few images of the site, as it was when we purchased it back in 2018. We've since removed the earth banks from two sides of the tank, so I'll upload some more recent shots later. We're both very excited about the build, but realistic about the challenges ahead. We couldn't have wished for a better location and the opportunity this has given us. Happy days! Dave & Helen