phykell

Will do 👍

Thanks for the detailed and very useful reply 😎 The house dates back to the mid 1700s with visible sandstone, brick and white render with an oak porch and black windows. The outbuilding is perhaps 25m away from the house so it doesn't need to look identical but the design is for what looks like a timber-clad (either natural or stained black) with an oak frame structure (natural finish) with oak garage doors, black glazing and a slate roof with (integrated/in-roof) solar panels. The aim was to "shrink" its apparent size by muting the colours (to black) and to still look rustic rather than super-modern so it wouldn't clash with the main house. The garage part will serve as both storage and workshop (and to host the solar PV and battery equipment) but I want to keep a distinct barrier between the garage section and the rest of the outbuilding. It'd be nice to have the garage underfloor heated but there's no practical need for it - insulating the slab should be enough and I have tons of firewood for an additional log burner. The rest of the outbuilding will be heavily insulated and air-tight - I'll insulate the garage too but there's no need (pointless) for an air-tight seal around the doors, etc. We do have a very heavy clay ground but with excellent topsoil and, further down, it's all red sandstone according to various, nearby water abstraction surveys (lots of farmers sourcing groundwater). The water table is high but the property is on a slope so it drains really well and we have no flooding issues or anything like that. Hopefully, you'll agree that I have a fair idea of what's needed but I definitely need a Structural Engineer to rationalise/normalise all of this into a cogent design that the builder and/or pool builder can rely on. I've already approached a couple of pool specialists but I'll probably prefer one that can "supply" an SE that he trusts unless the architect I choose has any other ideas. The problem remains though, that I need to pull a number of specialists together to get this off the ground and I know (from experience in a completely different industy) that the old cooks in the kitchen adage often applies. I'd prefer to keep it as simple as possible and start off by finding an architect that has experience with pool construction/design. Great point about the longevity and maintenance costs, etc. We'll be in this house for at least the next ten years and hopefully, many beyond that but I'd like to think that the next owner, perhaps a younger family, will love the pool.

I'm working on the basis that a domestic pool's chlorine levels don't have to be anywhere near that required for a public pool and, typically, only two people will be using it regularly. I'm told that an auto-dosing systems will monitor the water and only introduce as much chlorine as necessary. Option for chlorine to be reduced still further using a hybrid systems and there's even a mineral water alternative (with other issues).

I've been watching a series of YouTube videos by a guy doing an outside pool using ICF. And then there's Robin Clevett's channel and his garden room, incorporating an indoor pool. I'd be interested in seeing comparisons between the various methods but I'll probably have to choose the judgement of the pool company I end up using. As it stands, there's already an 11m x 5m pool which is built in concrete with, I presume, zero insulation. I had thought I could possibly utilise part of it as the new pool but I'm not so sure now - insulation is going to be key to having a reasonable running cost, even with a ton of solar panels forming the roof. I see a lot of remarks about standard MVHRs not being up to the task as you suggest so that RecoTherm does sound interesting - no pricing on their website though and I couldn't find anything regarding sizing either. Next, I have to consider the building construction method - SIPs, timber frame or brick/block, but I'm leaning towards timber frame at the moment and stil trying to work out which would be more suitable to house a pool and a garage. I'm just hoping everything will be done this time next year. No Ferrari - not really into cars, prefer motorcycles 😎

Admittedly big, but single-storey and mostly just a roof and four walls around an 11m x 5m pool with a three-bay garage and plant room in-between. Every square centimetre has been accounted for 😎 I certainly didn't kick a ball around so I'm hoping to do it all for a reasonable cost. Yes, HVAC is a must and I intend to use a heat pump as the heat source - had great results with a heat pump on my house renovation. There will be a plant room and shower/changing room between the pool room and the garage section plus I expect the garage to not be exactly air-tight. Noted. Funny thing is that the existing outdoor pool was probably constructed in the early 70s, as far as we can tell, and the structure is still in perfect condition - it doesn't seem to leak at all. Let's hope I can find contractors who can achieve much the same!

Thanks - I agree with all of that. The size is approximately 29m x 7m. It would have been even bigger if I'd been able to build over the existing external swimming pool but it's too close to the neighbour's boundary so the pool has to be reduced in width. My original belief was that it was a very simple construction, just a long box with a dwarf wall, and timber-clad block with a traditional slate roof and guttering. I've had some large extensions built previously so I'm familiar with basic construction methods and I didn't think this would be that much different. However, over the 2+ years since the original design, I've now realised that I can't just let a builder do what he wants and that it would be impossible to find one who would be able to pull all the components together such as the pool renovation/reconstruction, plant room build, solar panel installation and roof truss calculations to allow for a vaulted ceiling rather than a flat, plastered ceiling. That and the fact that I won't be working with the builder whose (employed) architect did the initial (general) design.

I fully agree and I like that quote - I must remember it 😎 All are welcome 👍

Sorry, missed this. I'm comparing to a traditional brick/block construction. SIPs, at least in the form of two thin OSB sheets separated by expanded polystyrene, seem very easy to get through with a recip saw, etc. and I plan to have all of my tools and garden machinery in there. I've read claims that this is not the case but I'm struggling to see how SIPs can measure up to a brick/block construction. However, I guess it's also the case that trying to get through a SIP wall would be extremely noisy and messy so it's unlikely that would be a preferred entry method for a burglar.

Yes, that's a good point - I'd meant to mention Building Control as they need to be involved due to the scale of the outbuilding.

Hi, I've just had a Lawful Development Certificate granted on appeal and I'm now looking at building an outbuilding which will contain a swimming pool and function as a garage. I do have a very general design for the outbuilding but it's more about size/layout and appearance. It doesn't consider alternative building materials or any specifics such as how to support the roof over the swimming pool. I have a very general brief - the building needs to function as a secure garage and it needs to be well-insulated to reduce heat loss from the pool which will be used all year round. I'd like the outbuilding's appearance to be that of a oak-framed structure, with a brick dwarf wall and timber cladding but the oak-frame detail only needs to be visible from the front elevation. I have wondered about it being a proper oak-frame with SIP panels for speed and insulation benefits but I'm a bit worried about security. I think the most cost-effective construction method would be cavity walls, using cheap block/concrete blocks because it's going to be clad in timber anyway. The question is, where do I go from here? Can I just approach a builder with all of the above or do I need an architect to write it all up into a building specification (with a structural engineer's input)? Do I approach an oak-frame supplier at this point? Thanks for looking and apologies in advance for such asking such an open-ended question.

A happy update to my Section 192 appeal (and on a Friday afternoon as well)... My Lawful Development Certificate was granted 😎 I'm still in shock to be honest but here's a timeline should anyone be interested in how long these things can take: 12th September 2024 (approximately) - Appeal submitted Mid-November 2024 - Appeal validated 7th January 2025 - Official start date of appeal on Planning Inspectorate portal 13th March 2025 - Appellant/LPA Final Comments due 7th November 2025 - Appeal granted Total time from submission to decision approximately 14 months or 10 months from the PI portal's start date. Easy to say now of course, but if you believe you're in the right and you've done all you can to confirm that belief, the system can work in your favour and I do want to say thank you to all the people that have contributed comments over the last year - it was all really helpful and appreciated 👍

The kitchen had already been removed but I'm going to get another couple of estate agents out to speak about renting but as you suggest, I'm leaning towards letting the buyer decide if we do sell it.

Hi, My house, which I'm moving out of, has an extension which effectively adds a "granny annexe" consisting of a bedroom, lounge, kitchen and bathroom - the house no longer has a garage as a result. The annexe has its own front door, staircase and internal doors to the main house can be locked but the services (electricity, gas, water) are all shared. The kitchen is bare at the moment, without any cabinets, and I'm trying to decide whether or not to fit the kitchen out or reinstate the garage - I'd convert the kitchen back. In the event that I sell or possibly rent it out: 1. Should I reinstate the garage (who needs one these days?) or fit the kitchen out to reinstate the annexe's status? 2. Would I need a planning application to convert the kitchen to a garage (remembering that the house originally had one). 3. Any opinions on whether a house with an annexe is of much interest to people, e.g. for elderly parents or possibly even for older kids who are yet to move out. I've tried asking estate agents but they don't really have an answer - a couple of them said that everyone parks their car on the drive, which is true, but I can't help thinking a garage is great for storage. Opinions welcome - thanks

Without going into too much detail (sorry OP), I originally went for a full application for a three-bay garage which they refused (and I'd already extended the main dwelling by just under 50%). I said I'd go the PD route (they hadn't realised it was the back of the house), and they then "offered" to approve a 2.5 bay but located 8m from the boundary which encroached onto my existing outdoor pool. It was then I decided to go the whole hog, leveraging PD, covering the pool and combining it with the garage. Checked with my one neighbour and he was happy. The LPA "strongly recommended" me to go for an LDC. Met all of the PD metrics such as distance from boundary, height, within 50% curtilage, etc. and thought it would be straight-forward. Mind you, it's the same LPA that rejected my balcony because they said they could see it from the road (I'd just coppiced the badly-maintained hedge) whilst allowing a development down the road to have balconies on both sides of their property in full view of a more major road.

In my case, the outbuilding is actually 183.3sqm but with an 800mm roof overhang (so 206sqm) as a kind of "porch" due to the council wanting me to have timber doors (!). Crucially though, it also incorporates a three-bay garage (with workbenches/storage and solar equipment), a plant room for the pool filtration, heating and MVHR, changing/shower room, and the pool room - it all adds up. For any pool, you need a suitably sized walkway which means 1m - my pool's 11x4 but there's a 1.5m area at one side and a 1m walkway all around it (could be flush with the wall but not great for maintenance) plus the outbuilding's double-skinned which reduces the internal dimensions. From my perspective, but also based on reasonable requirements, observations and recommendations, the outbuilding is no larger than it needs to be. The outbuilding, as I planned it, takes up substantially less area than the sum area of the original two-bay garage and the original pool and surrounding decking and pool house.

PD requirement is for <=50% of the "curtilage" (area of land around a house and forming one enclosure with it). In other words, 50% or less of what's left after the main dwelling's area is subtracted. Yes, "subordinate to the main dwelling" is a potential minefield - it can apply to scale but not necessarily. As an example, whilst my outbuilding may have a larger footprint than the main house, the outbuilding is a single storey and doesn't look like a primary dwelling (primary dwelling also has a greater volume). Also, crucial to ensure it's “for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse“.

The property is well over an acre in size so the outbuilding's less than 5% of the available space. Indoor swimming pools are typicaly PD and don't require PP. Just under 180sqm so the outbuilding is bigger but understandable if the latter's housing a swimming pool. I would add that it's worth the OP justifying his workshop's area perhaps by giving some detail on the machinery/storage, etc. that the workshop is intended to include - I think the lack of detail on my original application gave my LPA the excuse it needed to reject my lawful development certificate, costing me a a great deal of time, inconvenience, effort and money.

It's under appeal, all the documents have been submitted so I'm just waiting for a decision from the Planning Inspectorate. I was refused a certificate of lawful development for an application which met all of the criteria for Permitted Development, yes. The outbuilding I want to build is just over 200sqm but it's to incorporate a three-bay garage and an existing 68sqm (reduced to 44sqm) swimming pool. The only PD metric which applies to the overall size of an outbuilding is the 50% curtilage rule. Unfortunately, what you say you want the outbuilding for, how you're going to use the space, and so on, is all rather subjective from the LPA's perspective and it's this weakness that some council planning officers will leverage to refuse an application.

Just wanted to confirm this as that's exactly what's happened to me despite my planned outbuilding conforming (and confirmed by the LPA) to all of the permitted development rules. Here's the well-used (Planning Inspectorate) Emin example (there are a couple of others): https://acp.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/ViewDocument.aspx?fileid=31950647#:~:text=In the Emin case it,dwellinghouse provides for primary purposes. Skip ahead to the appeal conclusion which includes: "I conclude that the outbuilding would not be required in its entirety for incidental purposes. In addition, the size of the building would be much larger than would genuinely and reasonably be required to serve its specified incidental purposes. As such it would not be permitted development by virtue of Schedule 2, Part 1, Class E of the GPDO." Makes a joke of the PD rules really and allows for a potentially vexatious planning officer and/or planning department to impose its subjective opinions on domestic permitted development.

It's certainly the same in my situation. We're in a conservation area and, to be in keeping with the main dwelling, my outbuilding will need to be roofed in reclaimed Welsh slate. The conservation officer even had an opinion about the specific shade, e.g. blue, purple, etc! Anyway, having re-roofed the main dwelling, I can be certain than integrated/in-roof solar panels will be a cheaper option.

It wasn't my intention to suggest that it was anything you were involved in but I shouldn't have limited my suggestion to corruption only - my emphasis would have been on unethical behaviour because I suspect that's far more common, hopefully, than outright corruption such as bribery. Perhaps I should have said, "If people do suspect unethical behaviour and/or corruption for a given planning application/appeal, interested parties could try exercising the right to a subject access request.

Approaching this from another angle, what about a subject access request for all details of internal correspondence, e.g. emails, minutes of meetings, recordings/transcripts of telephone conversations regarding a given planning application/appeal? If you do suspect corruption, this might be a place to start.

Good on them ignoring the council 👍 The council said I'd have to gain planning permission to demolish my existing (now previous) garage which I duly did. They then refused my LDC leaving me without any garage space for the past 18 months. House has no loft space so the main lounge is full of garage stuff. That's what happens if you follow the council's advice to demolish existing structures and then seek an LDC which they had no intention of granting.

Thanks - I saw the appeal process diagram for a section 78 appeal: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d555366ed915d08d3325bff/Inquiry_appeal_overview_diagram.pdf Based on your experience, it's very optimistic! Mine's a section 192 appeal but I can't find a specific process diagram so I assume it's much the same as for section 78.

A question for those who have been through the appeal process - I've submitted a questionnaire and a statement, and I may have to submit final comments. Does the LPA have to submit a corresponding questionnaire, statement, final comments and do I get to see them at any point, e.g. once the deadline for each state has expired? There's lots of information on the government web site about the process, but it doesn't suggest/confirm anything about the above that I can find.