Green Power

See separate comment below for sources. Use the symbols * # ^ to find the relevant source. This is a comparison of the total forecast lifecycle cost of the heat pump I've just installed, vs the hypothetical gas boiler that I didn't install. This is for my 2-bed end terrace of 71 square meters*. Air to water for heating and hot water. A 50 year old house with cavity wall insulation in one wall and loft insulation. I have previously discussed this in the separate thread "Boiler Upgrade Scheme Grant - Actions to Take Now." Based on a heating system lifetime of 13 years. Since the gas boiler is more likely to need immediate replacement after about 13 years, and the heat pump is more likely to last longer**, the 13-year time may be slightly favourable to gas. A 20-30 year view looks even better for heat pumps. Daikin: internal unit is model number EHVH04SU18E6V and has a 6kW backup immersion heater and a 180-litre tank. The external unit is ERGA06EVA and has a nominal heating capacity of 5.90kW. Overview I estimate £1,105 more up front on the heat pump and then £100 per year saved on service/maintenance after that and £369 saved on fuel (including avoided gas standing charge) for a 2-3 year payback period. Gas Boiler Costs £2,300 for boiler ***(including boiler itself, labour and VAT) £15,516 for gas (13 years at £1,194 per year based on 11588kWh**** per year at £0.103 per kWH#). £1,330 additional for standing charge (£102 per year at £0.28 per day#.) £2,600 for maintenance/service/repairs (£200 per year).## £130 for 2 gas safety certificates at £65 each. ### TOTAL: £21,876 Heat Pump Costs £3,405 for heat pump after grant^ (full installation cost including labour, a heat pump, and a hot water tank) £12,052 for electricity (13 years at £927 per year based on 2727kWh^^ at £0.34 per kWh#) £1,300 for maintenance/service/repairs (£100 per year).^^^ £106 for removal of the gas meter.^^^^ TOTAL: £16,863. Saving after 13 years: £5,013. Break even point 2 years 4 months.

From the point of view of invoice, they just invoiced me, and I paid. The BUS/Ofgem did not complicate the process at this point from my standpoint. The installer will have to apply to them directly for the grant. I paid £3405 of course, not the £8405. (Increased from about £8,200 to £8405 as they removed a part of a cupboard to allow the installation.)

The internal unit includes a hot water tank and is model number EHVH04SU18E6V and has a 6kW backup immersion heater and a 180-litre tank. The external unit is ERGA06EVA and has a nominal heating capacity of 5.90kW. Daikin is the supplier.

It is a hot water tank, a heat pump (internal and external unit), mostly used existing radiators but added 2 more, and all the labour and materials etc. I am not sure what you mean by uvc. Do you mean ultraviolet light to stop Legionnaires' disease developing in the water tank? If so, I don't know whether that feature was included or not.

Not true. In my case for example I will pay a total of just over 3k, grant is 5k. I do think the 5k grant will cause price inflation as it creates more demand while supply is, at least in the short term, relatively closer to constant. But I suspect the inflation is more like 1-2k. In other words the existence of a 5k grant brings down the price by 3-4k and installer pockets 1-2k. If true, I don't think this is a bad thing at all. We want greener heating systems to be more profitable so that they can grow their business and others can be attracted to join the space.

So I was approved on September 21st and the heat pump installed October 14th and 15th. The approval process took 2 weeks, but if I had been living in the UK, or had figured out to use VPN earlier, I could have got it down to 1 week. The process is initiated by the installer, so all you have to do is reply to an email by going to a link to confirm some info. So the process is not difficult from the customer point of view.

I was approved inspite of living abroad and inspite and telling them over the phone that I lived abroad (and not paying UK taxes), and writing it down in email. Also, it was the BUS themselves that told me to get a VPN and set it to UK. So it seems pretty clear that I am OK. I guess the reference to England and Wales is because it's not relevant for homes in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Ofgem references "buildings in England and Wales" with nothing about residency. https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-and-social-schemes/boiler-upgrade-scheme-bus The BUS site does not provide enough clarity on this point. It says: "You may be eligible if you: live in England or Wales own your property (whether this is a home or a small non-domestic property) Private landlords and second-home owners are eligible." which does not answer the question really. Can you provide your source for your quote which specifically says "resident"?

The install was delayed as it turned out I had to do a few other jobs in the house to make way for the heat pump, and those dragged on for months for various reasons. So the installer eventually applied for the grant a couple of weeks ago. I received an email from the BUS and I had to click on the link and answer a few questions to confirm eligibility. However at first the link didn't work even on other browsers, devices, or internet connections (they suggested to do it on mobile data incase my home internet wasn't working). When I told them I lived them abroad they said they would have to check with management re eligibility. They then told me to use a VPN and set my location as UK to be able to access the link which worked. I used iTop VPN which was free and fairly easy. Presumably this means that I am eligible even though I live abroad, otherwise it would be a bit odd that they were telling me to use as VPN. All I got back was "We’ve received your consent for [company name] to apply to the Boiler Upgrade Scheme (BUS) on your behalf" and "We’ll assess [company name] application as quickly as we can, and let them know the outcome by email." That was on Friday. Nothing today. This has taken 2 weeks so far of emails with the BUS (the government grant department), although it might have been 1 if it wasn't for the fact that I was abroad and the link was blocked. The BUS has taken between 1 day and 1 week to reply to each email and take an action.

200m loft insulation was added, and there was some already in there, current total is 250 or 270mm. It states 0.46 U value for "wall external". Windows are double glazed, but some of the seals may have failed. A few need looking at which I will plan to likely to do in the August or autumn, potentially after the heat pump is installed. One wall already has cavity fill, the others can´t be done. Drafts not currently an issue.

Looks like the install requires either removing the old warm air heating unit from the under stair cupboard or removing a small part of the kitchen desktop. The first option requires asbestos investigation and removal. Anyone know a good company for this. The house is in Northants, but perhaps someone can recommend a company that works nationally. Search engine results only returned one company that I liked and they didn't reply.

Hugh: Compressor is outside. Adsibob: I have added more lost insulation since that post to improve the rating from a D to a C. Bassanclan: yes less 5k grant, so it´ll be just over 3k that I actually pay.

So the one that was £7.6k without radiators is now, after the visiting the house, £8.2k with radiators. They proposed to replace 3 of the radiators (with Kartell K Rad Kompact) but keep the other existing radiators. I think I will go ahead with this one. All the others are £2-5k more or didn't reply to me. If it wasn't for this one, I think I would have deferred for a few years due to high cost, so I may have been lucky. The cheaper one has just as good reviews and has been just as professional dealing with me (or better) than some of the others, and had good, clear info on the quote and is more local than some, so feels like a no brainer at this point. One doubt I did have was that the heat calculation that they sent me after visiting the property was exactly the same as the estimation as before, and the tenant said they only spent 15 minutes there measuring the radiators and doing whatever else which seems low. However I don't think that is enough to stop me going ahead. They want to install a split/integrated (rather than monobloc) unit, which would be a Daikin Altherma 3 R32 with a 180L water tank with a 4-6kW backup heater (for the water tank), a thermostatically controlled programmable timer, a 5 year warranty (but requires £150 annual service spend to keep warranty valid). The design heating flow temperature is 45C. The estimated SPF (seasonal COP) is 3.6 for heating and 2.4 for hot water with an estimated consumption of 2.75MWh electricity per year for heating (to produce 9.9MWh of heat) and 1.03MWh of electricity for hot water (of which 0.8MWh is from the heat pump and 0.2 from the backup immersion heater). That gives a total electrical energy consumption of 3.78MWh per year.

I am a landlord and I live abroad and not planning to visit back to the UK this year.

Sorry for delay in response, I've been waiting for the company to send some more information about the LG proposal so I could answer you, but they haven't yet.

Initial quotes (all include a heat pump, hot water tank and installation) are £7.6k without radiators, £11.8k including radiators, and £11.5-12.5k (guide price) without radiators. One last one offered me £10k without radiators - when I explained that was a bit high vs my budget they suggested changing from Mitsubishi to LG with integrated Cylinder and buffer tank within and this could bring the price down to £9k, let me know about any thoughts on the LG? Mitsubishi is the most common heat pump in the quotes, with one quoting on Daikin. No-one has been to the property yet so these quotes may adjust. It looks like it became a seller's market in April, due to the new grant initiative and perhaps the Ukraine war. I can see this from both my experience, as well as a few news reports online. This perhaps applies to all green energy including solar. Logically it makes sense given the limited supply for companies to inflate their price or at least refuse to negotiate whereas before they might have. Therefore, of the £5k grant, in reality the company probably effectively pockets maybe £1-2k and you only really get £3-4k in a sense. I don't think this is a bad thing. It makes green energy a more profitable business, can fund expansion, and encourage others to enter. At a total guess, I reckon you might get prices £1k cheaper in 1-2 years or £2k cheaper in 3-5 years, as the market matures and grows to meet the new demand. Given the current market, I could potentially see that for some people heat pumps would work great because you might just happen to have a reliable local installer with good reviews and low price, while others might happen to find no-one in their area available at a reasonable price. I had one company initially say they would quote only later reply to say that I was out of their coverage area now as they had redefined it. A few replied to me only after a few days or a week or two. I'd be interested in any opinions on whether heat pumps work well with radiators. Obviously, it depends, but what is the more common case, works with existing radiators or requires new radiators?

Great article above actually, a bit of a pro heat pump bias in the article, but still good.

I did also find out about the Trustmark website later, and there are some more local installers on there that aren´t on CIGA, but I never got around to checking out online or contacting them. However the one that didn´t answer the phone that I mentioned above did respond when I emailed them. He then went to the property and confirmed as others said that front and back walls can´t have cavity wall insulation. He drilled a hole in the end gable wall and found it already has cavity wall insulation. Therefore, the same person has agreed to do me a new EPC for me (since the person that did the old one wasn´t able to help with removing the cavity wall insulation recommendation for me) and this time will not recommend cavity wall insulation. With this CWI recommendation removed, I should be eligible for the grant hopefully. I am also going to get him to put loft insulation in for me. A heat pump installer that I am quoting with told me today that heat pumps are like "gold dust" at the moment and there is a 3-month lead time in some cases. I also heard from them that "applications for grants opens from 23 May". This is slightly different to what I was previously told elsewhere which was "you can register on 11th April and vouchers will be released 25th May." I expect the 23rd May date is more correct as it looks like it is from an official leaflet which I attach. bus-installer-leaflet.pdf

Thanks for your help everyone. I think I get it now.

This is a little confusing. Let me know if this is accurate: Imagine a 5kW heat pump in a house with triple glazing and loft and cavity wall insulation. It's working fine. The COP is 3.5. Now let's say we remove the insulation and triple glazing and replace with single glazing. A higher water temperature is now required. The efficiency reduces. The COP is now less than 3.5 to achieve the same air temperature in the house. It therefore now takes greater than x% more money to provide the additional x% heat energy required. But now let's say we replace the 5kW heat pump with an more powerful heat pump (e.g. 8kW) and add new or larger radiators. The COP would now increase. For example, it might to back to 3.5.

With heat pumps being slower to heat up, a poorly insulated house is harder to heat up than a well insulated one though, right. Of course, you can avoid this issue by turning the heating on remotely before you get home and leaving it on a lot when you are at home. But that still leaves the question I've heard that a heat pump works let efficiently in a poorly insulated house, would you agree with that. Meaning that when due to poor insulation you require x% more heat that will require >x% more electricity because the COP is lower. Is that fair? Just did a search online for external cladding insulation but looks like £100/square meter is a figure on a few websites, £5-£15,000 for most houses, probably £5,000-£10,000 for mine which is smaller than the average house. Also not convinced that external insulation would work well with my house, the external part of the house already has a kind of cladding (but not one that would retain much heat) there are some kind of tiles on the upper part and some kind of white plasticky covering on the bottom part. Would be a tricky job I suspect and would leave the house looking the odd one out on the street vs the others.

According to one insulation company and my lettings agent, I can't get cavity wall insulation in this house because it is not suitable for this type of house. They say that the concrete walls likely have no cavity or one that is too small and that the use of timber inside the construction likely makes cavity wall insulation problematic due to risk of damp issues. I've contacted the assessor of my EPC who recommended cavity wall insulation to ask them to remove the recommendation from the EPC. In theory I could then get every other type of insulation and then get the heat pump. However cavity wall insulation is considered the most important one so that does call in to question the suitability of the project a bit. I will look into external cladding insulation but I'm not too convinced about that option, but I will do further research on it. let me know if anyone has any viewpoint on this.

Great, thanks a lot. There are no installers listed there as far as I can see that are within a 50 minute drive of Wellingborough. However I found through the site 14 CIGA CWI installers 1 - 2 hours from Wellingborough. I've emailed all of them and offered to pay the petrol if they come out and do a quote. I reckon that should be enough to get 3-5 of them to reply and say they'll do it and then I'll check their websites and reviews and go on to quote with the best 2-3 of them. At least that's the plan.

Neither of the cavity wall insulation companies replied to my emails of Monday so I called them today. The first one said that they don't do that any more because it's a hassle with certain regulations. The other one didn't answer the phone. So not going well at this point. The only reason I mention this detail is I wonder if getting cavity wall insulation is tricky nationwide or not. If so, that's something to consider. Those were the only two I found in Northants that had an OK website and OK reviews. I think I will widen the search to include Leicester, Peterborough, Cambridge, Milton Keynes, Rugby and Coventry - anywhere within an hour or so of Wellingborough - let me know if anyone knows of any cavity wall suppliers they have experience with or heard anything about in any of those locations.

I've been told today by an installer that they are NOT expecting everything about the new Boiler Upgrade Scheme to be announced and ready on 1st April. They are anticipating that you can register on 11th April and vouchers will be released 25th May. If this is correct, this means that anyone installing between now and 25th May will have to take a risk on the 5k should the government scheme fall apart or something else go wrong. I shall wait until at least 25th May to avoid any risk of that. However, the installer can invoice me the difference and get the 5k from the government, confirming what I posted on the previous page - (last post of March 19th). 2-3 heat pump installers I've contacted in/near Northants said that they do not install cavity wall insulation and do not partner with these companies to give a package. Therefore, I will need to do cavity wall insulation first and then get heat pump installed separately so I've reached out to two cavity wall insulation companies for quotes on that.

Note that the way many review sites' business model works is to start with they publish bad reviews. This presumably happens naturally since people who have had things got wrong are full of anger and the review is the outlet to direct that at the world. This means that, without incentives or companies asking people to write a review, average ratings are bad since people with bad experiences are more likely to review. As a result of their bad reviews, companies pay to sign-up to review sites to get the reviews better. The review sites are making money from the companies being reviewed. Think about the incentives that creates. All review sites that make the majority of their money from the companies being reviewed are as unreliable as the PR department of that same company! Ones that make their money from advertising could be more reliable. Reviews on google might be more reliable since it's not their main business model and you wouldn't think it would make sense for them to compromise their company reputation for a small additional bit of $. Once a company has signed up to one of these review sites, it becomes easier for them to challenge reviews. The review site will then let them challenge reviews, and then the people get a message saying e.g. "please provide photos and further description of the experience, and serial number" and then when they get the info they require they just keep asking for more info until people give up or don't respond. By this method, they can claim negative reviews are fake, and then delete most of them. Of course, they don't challenge positive reviews. This is a very common tactic, I've often seen complaints written about it. Companies signing up to these review sites also get to invite people to leave a review, or have the review sites contact the customers for them inviting them to put a review. Of course people will be invited to leave a review immediately - within days or weeks - , well before any problems would develop in most cases! Again, deliberately leading to biased reviews. The people invited to review are often filtered - if a customer is known to be unhappy, they won't be invited to review. Another tactic is to create high ratings is to ask some basic questions that will obviously lead to a yes answer, and then generate a star rating from the answers rather than getting the reviewer to input the rating. Or email a note out saying "you are free to give any rating you wish, note that this company has received an average 4.5*" to try and give a nudge. There are probably other tactics. They can't make it too obvious that they are selling a higher rating for $. I should add that none of the above comment so far is directed at Trust Pilot or anyone in particular. I don't recall the exact methods of each site. You can find more with a search. However notice that Mitsubishi on Trust Pilot says "unclaimed profile". I've noticed that most of the heat pump companies with an unclaimed profile on Trust Pilot that I checked had an average rating that was quite low such as 1.5* or 2* while most of the claimed profiles are nearer 4*. I do wonder if that is a coincidence, and whether or not 2* unclaimed is similar quality company to 4* claimed. 3* unclaimed might be a stellar company, while 3* claimed might be a disaster zone. Anyway, judge for yourself. From what I've seen from unbiased people posting on forums and vidoes on Youtube, the Mitsubishi Ecodan is a respected product, and I'm sure people have a variety of different experiences.