jonpaul31

PS: can I just say thank you to everyone who has helped so far. ??

Yes I can indeed evidence that I raised this within the first two years. Very good point. I will raise this with them again tomorrow. Thanks Rob.

Yes you are right- totally. However, one can sell a property for many reasons eg if one was to lose their job and couldn’t afford to stay there. I was being slightly facetious but it didn’t translate well in writing- guess I was just writing allowed without thinking about the interpretation. In fact it has been suggested above that I cut losses and sell which I don’t want to do for the reasons you state. I wouldn’t have started this thread in the first place if that was indeed the case.

Hahaha. I like the idea of flooding my neighbour as he is an arse ?. Whatever I do now has to be careful. Any paper trail might come back to bite me if I sell and the problem still exists- you have to declare whether heating works now. Although I could say if the problem is queried that it works but I wanted nicer carpet and sacrificed that against warmth, or at least the efficiency of that warmth. End of the day it’s up to me what I put on my floor.

Just spoke to NHBC and they only help rectify complaints with builders (at least for heating) for the first 2 years. They said it is now solicitor job. Although, if the builder does not have an active office, what good will that do. I could always contact freeholder as pretty sure my lease states my flat is everything above floor and below ceilings. Could be worth a pop. I tell ya, this has been one big balls up. I think the builder was puposefully obstructive.

I don’t. Again, it must be in my property file I received when I moved in so I will check later after work.

Not sure I can find out until everything is ripped up if the builder has naffed off.

Good advice. Thanks Temp.

I agree- a few phone calls to NHBC would be beneficial. Let’s face it, if the sound proofing issue turns out to be real, and you are all saying it is not standard practice, then they surely haven’t got a leg to stand on. I already bought a 2.8 kw heater for living room and a 600-800w one for bedroom and office (second bedroom) if needed. I’m not convinced it’s gonna be cost effective though, although damn site cheaper than the NIBE. ??

Not yet no. I wanted to get all my ducks in a row first as it were. The whole thing is a mind circus. Whilst I say the heating contractors were helpful, they did not reveal the sound proofing observation until the 11th hour. Prior to that, they were even asking if I had a partner living in my two bed flat because UFH systems are finely tuned and consider number of people. I mean it’s a joke. My hob after cooking for 30 minutes warms the place up better than the thing that's sole purpose is to warm the property. You couldn’t make it up. ?

All of the tests above were initiated by builder. They essentially asked the heating contractor to investigate and sort, who then arranged a third party to provide their expertise. I informed the builder of this test and lack of progress with my complaint and he complained that I shouldn’t be trying to arrange independent tests and that it was now my problem. But I didn’t- it was the bloody heating contractor. And now to add insult to injury, the builders shut up shop last year. This has been going on since 2016. It’s a total disgrace. Yes I think I will he investigating under the floor so I can post. Although to be fair, the heating contractor has already verified this. But I guess you mean to eliminate whether he is telling porkies.

Wow- thanks for the replies, Folks. Let me see if I can work this quote tool so I can address everything. Yes I understand about about where the sound proofing should be, but to be clear it is not where it should be. It is not under the UFH, it is situated above it, between my floor and the UFH. If I roll back the carpet and underlay, it still doesn't really eliminate it as the problem, even if the room did warm up to target temp. The reason being is this: the sound proofing cock up and carpet/underlay are both co-variables. You would need to eliminate both to exclude the other by introducing them back in, one at a time. For example, I could peal back carpet/underlay, get a positive result, and then put a combined tog of 1.0 down after. The same problem could occur if the sound proofing was the issue, since any flooring will provide a degree of thermal resistence, and it could breech what would be considered the threshold. As for buying thermometer and testing floor, this has already been done very comprehensively. Hence the comments about the need for a +5 degree differntial. The naked floor (I have been told) must always be at least 5 degrees hotter than the temperature for which the UFH was designed to run at. Yes this is what I thought- the evidence is kind of there in the example I gave about the ground and first floor flats. Also, I forgot to say that every flat on top floor is having exactly the same issue and they also have a slightly thinner carpet/underlay supplied by builder (I had to do mine myself because I knocked them down £5k at purchase. I could post this I beleive- it is in my flat file. If I recall correctly, it is 55 outgoing and 54 on the return. The manifold is situated right next to the NIBE. I am pretty confident that the heating company have it set up optimally. But I guess that makes no difference if you have nicely tight sealed layer of sound proofing over the top of the UFH. And that's before we get to the floor, underlay and carpet We also checked the insulation in roof and the builder laid more. When checked by heating contractor, they said it was ample. Not convinced the rolling of carpet will help hear- see my comment in this post about co-variables- we would need to elimante the sound proofing and carpet collectively and reintroduce one at a time. I can confirm that the ground floor flats have the aluminium spreader plates and the first/second floor have some sort of foil matting (as told by heating contractor). The UFH pipes are not directly underneath the floor. Sounds like a right balls up to me. This is of course if the heating contractor is telling the truth about the sound proofing and I do not really have any reason to beleive not. Thanks so much for your replies everyone. I can assure you it is very appreciated. This has been the cause of much stress. I do hope NHBC might be able to offer some relief here.

Hi Dave, Thank you for your reply. To answer your questions: I am based in Weymouth, Dorset on the south coast. By means of example, yesterday it was 5 degrees outside and the internal temperature was 19 degrees at 10:00 am. Keeping in mind that the UFH turned on at 04:00 am and had been on a while. The temperature was 0-2 degrees last week and it was 16-17 degrees in the flat. The SAP energy rating for this property is 84. I had the carpet pealed back just over half way for a week last year and whilst it got closer, it still did not reach target. I do have the instructions and the only guages I can read are water temp (54 degrees) and pressure (1.3 bar). At last service, the heating engineer said that the system is running optimally and the return water temp was only 1 degree less than outgoing. Regarding the carpet issue, I thought what the third party said during his naked floor investigation was interesting (regarding the required +5 degree differential), as was the sound proofing being on top of the water pipes. Do you have any thoughts on that? That surely is not standard practice is it? I think what might be happening is the soundproofing is blocking heat, which then changes the standard rules regarding UFH and tog. The third party said whilst you can use carpet with UFH, it will still offer a degree of thermal resistence and that, combined with sound proofing, it is likely to be a hinderence to the system working properly regarding floor heat. Now, I am on the top floor (there is a ground and two floors). The third party also said that whilst hot air travels up, it will move down if it is trapped and I am likely heating the downstairs flat on 1st floor. This is supportted by the fact their bills are cheaper (same size flat). However, in turn he said they may also have same problem since their sound proofing is also installed over the top of the UFH pipes. As such, they are likely heating the ground floor flat. This is also supportted by the fact the ground floor flat said they are extremely warm. Furthermore, the ground floor does not have sound proofing in floor so they will be getting the right heat from their UFH, as well as potentially the downward heat from the first floor flat. Now, obviously I do not have anyone above me so the consistency in this installation chain stops with me. Incidentally, my kitchen has vinyl flooring and whilst it is not cold, it isn't exactly warm. By comparison, the ground floor neighbour's kitchen floor was 'very' warm when I went in there one day. They would not presummibly have sound proofing over the top of their UFH pipes. Even if the carpet was an issue and I replaced for third time, the sound proofing issue throws a curve ball into the mix as I would never be able to guess what the right tog should be. It is 2.1 now and should be working to be honest. Unless that sound proofing is an issue i.e. it is over the top of the UFH. Remember, that is a fact by the way as the heating contractor was there in my home at the same time as the third party UFH chap. He said the builder asked them to install UFH before the sound proofing was laid. All strikes me as odd. Thank you for your help so far, Dave. John

Hi Folks, This is my first post and sorry it is long: please be patient with me as this has been a long term problem. The below has taken a long time to get to due to complacent builder not wanting to help and heating contractor delays who could only carry out tests in winter, etc. As such, for simplicity I will just stick to the facts regardless of the duration it has taken. I bought a new build flat in 2016 with a NIBE F205P heat pump and underfloor heating (UFH). I always wanted to get a nice carpet fitted and I was aware of the combined underlay and carpet tog value rule of not exceeding 2.5. However, I stupidly laid combined tog of 2.8 and had heating issues- the flat would never reach the desired temp of 21 degrees and it was rinsing my electric. In light of this, I changed my carpet to Revlon 90 Scorpius Invictus (tog 1.3) and kept my Duralay King UFH underlay (tog 0.8) for a combined tog of 2.1- it has made no difference whatsoever and the same problems occur even on relatively mild winter/autumn days. On freezing cold days, the flat never stands a chance and is often be 3 degrees off target temperature. Please keep in mind that this problem happens with the NIBE on both setting 1 i.e. heat pump, and 2 i.e. heat pump and immersion (apologies if terminology is slightly incorrect there). So I have a double whammy of no heat but rinsing electric because it doesn't hit the thermostat temp of 21 degrees. Last winter, the heating contractor (who despite the long duration, has tried to be helpful through constant checking, servicing, etc) arranged an investigation of my problem by a third party using both a thermal camera test and laser thermometer. This was done to see if my carpet and underlay was the problem. This test revealed that with the carpet and underlay pealed back, the bare naked wooden floor was outputting 23 degrees. The independent chap informed me that if the system was designed to keep the rooms at 21 degrees, there would need to be a differential of at least +5 degrees meaning the bare floor needed to be 26 degrees minimum to punch through the wooden floor, underlay and carpet. In that moment, the 'heating contractor' who installed it revealed that the 'builder' instructed them to install the heating water pipes “UNDERNEATH” the sound proofing. Sorry but does that not sound like madness? Surely this is why I am having problems and the usual rule of 'do not exceed tog 2.5' no longer applies because there is an extra barrier i.e. the sound proofing. So now I cannot predict what combined tog to install as clearly the heating is not producing the necessary heat, arguably because of the sound proofing being laid on top! I cannot even install hard flooring as it is against the terms of my lease. I really do not know what to do as no matter what setting I have the NIBE on, it never reaches temperature and therefore rinses the electric, especially on setting 2. I was thinking of contacting NHBC about this as I still have six years left and surely this is a building cock up. My flat is relatively small and as a reference, my electric was £327 for the 3 months of October to January. That is far too much for just me and it’s gonna seriously affect ability to sell or I will get some serious comeback since these faults need to be declared on property information forms when you sell. Any advice? I really am in a quandary ☹️. Thank you so much. John