Clive Osborne

Did you actually read my post at all ? We are talking about how much FIR we get into the room. I clearly said we dont have the equipment to measure that correctly we know we get far more than a FIR panel. We are getting a specialist to do it. Many years ago I used an AVO meter for measuring resistance. I dont now. We are well versed on FIR. You should talk to my Tech Director. You guys wouldn't leave the room for a week. Now please let me go away and do what I said I will regarding test results. That's not an unreasonable request. I did not see anyone from F****r come on here and stand up for their product when negative things were posted

Well not all houses are insulated the same. We test in a room that has no insulation at all. This is pretty basic stuff . I'm not going to post about calculating heat loss . It's also on our site about watts per Sq. Meter . I assume your house is passive or you never take your coat off

I have and will post in when i am in the office.Remeber i have said wavelength changes with temperature. Also not being rude I have said that many times its FIR and Temperature needs to be right. We have some very expensive test equipment to hire and an expert to use it coming soon. The purpose of this is to measure exactly the difference. We use FLIR cameras all the time but at our price level tolerances are as not great as it could be . Let me post independent test results as promised. Then we can comeback to this.

To compare properly you would have to have the flow temp of the gas boiler at 28C I assume ?

I have never said it's better than mains gas. I have never sold a ASHP to anyone on mains gas or Nexgen on the basis of saving money. But the future is electric and we can have a 1.2 sq meter using the full benefits of FIR no screed and around 100 watts a sq meter. More efficient than heating air

This is true of FIR panels. It is why we work on lower temps and greater coverage . People claim a 1.2KW heater on one wall will heat a 20 sq meter . We have found this not to be the case. Very little FIR into the room just radiant heat. Not from my experience I would never pull out a mains gas boiler over a ASHP or Nexgen . It's amazing when people compare existing running cost of a gas boiler to a ASHP . How about you turn the gas boiler down to the same flow water temp and increase emitter size as they do with a ASHP and then compare. They would not compete. I would never recommend to replace mains gas with Nexgen or ASHPs unless it's the customers desire for whatever reason. In the case of mains gas Solar PV an example. As for mains LPG, Standard electric or oil I would recommend Nexgen.

As I said before FIR varies greatly by temperature and what is directly in front of it.

Yes it's a huge part . Better on walls and ceilings with just a skim of plaster than under laminate. We do however no need any screed over the top. As I have said FIR benefits vary based on area and temperature . A larger area at lower temperature gives us better FIR

We only use a small amount of graphene in comparison to graphite and other things in the mix. I think this probably explains our objective a lot better than I did !

Well I have been banging on about FIR wavelength, temperature etc. To be fair and I have apologised but the original post on here some what annoyed me. As did being in the same thread and compared to a electric heater company that sell direct to old people at very high prices. Also we are not a panel we are a 0.48mm film. We have test results coming regarding comparisons but I already know it will be better by some distance. If that was not bad enough then compared to a 1950s heater annoyed me also. Anyway a bit too much red mist came down. Results will be posted.

Nick I am afraid you are the few not the many regarding knowledge. For example recently I have consulted with a build of 200 new houses average about 120 sq meter most terraced or linked terrace. All specified mains gas , still best option from a running cost viewpoint and wet underfloor heating. They specified 12KW mits. ASHPs. Go figure In a housing charity in London new flats close passive 70 square mtrs two bed . Wanting me to put a 500 watt panel on bathroom walls ( We just up voltage to 48 volt DC to get power/temp) But nothing else in the whole flat. It will never drop below 19 degrees apparently. I declined to bid. All electric with plenty of solar panels so it should have been ideal for us. My assumption was on that basis they and no air changes they were all going to die.Or with air changes it wouldn't stay at 19 degrees for the next 20 years which is our warranty

As I said and please bare with me. I am only interested in this scenario about FIR. Not heat I am trying to paint a picture of the benefits of far infrared. Not at high temp behind a panel but directly on walls or ceilings which is how we always recommend for it to be fitted just skimmed or painted.It works perfectly well as radiant heat particularly under carpet.

We also compare to heating air not other types of radiant heating. Now I am in danger of being divorced have a great weekend. I apologise if I went off half cocked. But after spending a lot time and money I took your original post personally.

The point is you use the same system for hot water ? Do you use a buffer tank ? How is hot water heated ? How many air changes per hour.

Water based could be radiators heating by convection

Please let's forget heat at this stage just the FIR.Just bare with me on this. Lets assume you are outside the sun is shining I am led in direct sunlight and you are led nearby but have a 4mm alluminium panel above you. Let's just talk about FIR getting into the body. We know FIR is absorbed easily into the body by up to 30mm . Let's also say there is a gentle breeze.

OK I may have got on the defensive based on the original post. To be fair I have mentioned FIR and wavelength v temperature quite a lot. I am a great believer in FIR getting into the body. I have fibromyalgia and nerve damage in my neck. This journey started when I went into a FIR sauna for the first time. I started with panels but could not achieve the same relief. I'm sure you know FIR can be absorbed easily into the body . Its replacing what we lose. I then found temperature made a difference . Anyway without boring everyone that was the start of the business. Then we moved to conductive inks etc. Nexgen is 24 volts because it's so low in resistance unlike heat mats of wire.Anyway it's the weekend and this has made me read all the website for the first time in a very long time. For that I think you. I also still believe water is not a great conductor. Also in my experience with wet under floor heating they heat the water to between 50C and 80C on the boiler / heat pump then blend it down with cold water to go under the floor. With a heat pump maybe 45C then you have to increase the DHW temp in the cylinder. It used to be once a week over 60C as well for legionella. Then you have some with buffer tanks for heating. Zoning is not always great. I appreciate like everything some installers are better than others. I have seen some shocking installs and some that the pipework looks like art !

You are saying far infrared can travel through any metal ? I am not talking transfer of energy. I am purely talking about FIR . So let's assume 100% on a wall painted over compared to behind a metal panel. How much FIR gets through ?

You do have to take the FIR factor into effect as well as we spent a lot of time on that. To be fair we do mention the FIR on the savings. We also need to look at our marketing and embrace this part more .

Ok now look at the FIR benefit of a FIR panel at 80 or 90 degrees with the element in aluminium. Then please compare.

I am saying that it's a mixture of things . Including temperature emitter size wavelength of the FIR, amount of FIR. You will I'm sure be aware that having FIR inside a metal panel at 80C becomes just radiant heat no real FIR benefit . Wavelength also changes with temperature. We concentrate on FIR content. One thing I have established is we need to do more about the amount of FIR on our website

You are referring to a air temp of 22C. We do not heat air I gaurantee you would turn Nexgen lower than 22C. It's about comfort. We do address this on the website amongst other things. It's not witchcraft there are many studies by companies far bigger than us with data on this. We also use lower temps because to get as much FIR as possible. As I said I will post data on here.

I will post it on here. Please do not forget you started this by saying there is no difference in energy usage between a 1950s electric heater and Nexgen. Now please also understand we are talking about comfort. Its fact that we lose heat as FIR . Is it that crazy that FIR is absorbed easily by us and after all that is the acid test. We do not use air sensors alone in test we use black bulb to measure radiation. We have a mixture of Nexgen and a hot water convection system. I never have the air temp above 19 and my wife never complains. In other rooms with radiators its 21C in winter. There is plenty of evidence on FIR heating so I am not going to go into it here. I will post results as I have said about 20 times.

I have said we will post this when we have it next week on numerous occasions. I have also explained radiant far infrared on the surface of a wall with nothing other than paint and plaster in front of it will take less power than heating water , putting it in a buffer tank , reducing the temperature by blending with cold water. Then get through 50mm of screed and heat the floor surface. It's common sense . Now we get to thermal mass and what point is there to continue to release heat from the thermal mass of the floor after the room is already up to temperature. In passive or new build you would end up with too much heat. Then we have air changes to consider . Not ideal if you heat air via convection.Anyway I am as bored as everyone else with this. Nexgen on wall picture prior to paint / plaster. Total power at full power 870 watts per hour. Actual heated element size 10 sq metres at 32 to 34 degrees. Warm up time 2 to 8 minutes.

First of all you need to differentiate between heating air and heating mass, radiant v convection . Secondly you need to know Nexgens heat up times . Nexgen will warm to a surface temperature of 28C in a couple of minutes ( 35C on walls) this is 24 volt and around 100 to 120 watts PSM. Secondly you need to understand far infrared temperature v wavelength. Now you need to include whatever is on the floor above Nexgen. You do not need a screed. On walls it's just paint or plaster. As I said I am happy to post independent testing when we get everything back. We also have test data from Germany versus storage heating and the result was 56% less energy. Maybe wait until you make assumptions. Lot 20 is to do with controls nothing to do with the heating. Please wait until I post data . Dont forget I only got involved because I found your initial post damaging to our brand without foundation. You just seem to keep digging. I have not avoided anything I have stated various times I will post independent test results. I am not wasting time reading your assumptions as I know the answer. If you want to play around with figures based on warm up times I have given please do. Try it on walls with full far infrared just skimmed with plaster. Then compare it to getting a wet underfloor system rise from 16C to 28C on the surface.I presume it's under a 50mm screed for a start. How long would it take for your UFH to get to the same temperatures ? You are basically saying regardless of the covering it will take the same energy to get to 23C on the surface . We can heat a 20mm tile to 24C in 10 minutes from 15C .Or wait until we publish which has been my response on other posts. Frankly you are just willy waving.For you it's a peeing up the wall contest . For me its many years of work and investment. You are basically saying I may as well sell 1970s bar fire heaters.That said ,I get it, your very smart. I have not wish spending hours on here .But you have not been working on this the last 6 years. You have never even seen the product . Why not read something regarding far infrared panels such as those by Herschel in Germany ? They compare radiant and convection heating. As a reminder this is what I responded to. I will show a video of it warming up if I can post it. But it wont be until after the weekend. Also what flow and return temps do have on your ASHP how do you heat DHW. How many zones have you. All this needs to be taken into account.Do you use a buffer tank ? Did you include maintaince costs , anti freeze ? Checking F gas levels etc. Warranties etc Have a good weekend Nexgen are just hype merchants who skate around the advertising rulesusing carefully chosen words to suggest that their heaters"might" be more efficient than others, as a way of fooling those who just have no grasp of the basic laws of physics.