alexo

The Internorm manual recommends using an acid and resin free oil to lubricate the window mechanisms. Does anyone know if the standard 3-in-One oil spray meets this criteria? Or otherwise could anyone recommend a suitable lubricant please? I know for the locking mechanisms/doors they recommend using PTFE only spray, but not sure if this is needed for window mechanisms.

I imagine 'Internorm's recommended installation methods' which was what was stated on my contract from the supplier, must be listed in a document somewhere available to installers. However it seems like this is a closely guarded secret. I don't have this document either I'm afraid. I have also been trying to get hold of this, having been in communication with the rep at Internorm. The first time I requested this, I was told 'this changes depending on the envelope of the building'. I replied with the details of the envelope of my house and received no further responses when I continued to request this. Of course I massively regret not insisting upon having the details of this before placing the order. I had just assumed that high spec windows would be fitted in a high performance way, rather than just the basic legal minimum of watertight and a basic amount of draught proofing. Maybe they would be more forthcoming with the details if they didn't already know I was in the middle of an install. Someone else on here has previously mentioned that these methods for standard (non-Passive) Internorm installs are just the legal minimum that could be fit in the UK. I.e. according to building regs and the GGF guidelines. This makes a lot of sense, especially with the disappointment clearly shown online (forums and reviews) with many who have had Internorm's fitted as replacement windows, and didn't know to ask for Passive fit. I think this problem stems from the vague term 'reasonably airtight' used in the building regs for replacement windows. I think it or GGF also mention 'draught proof'. Again vague. If there was a number, method, or materials attached to this (as is the case with Passive fit) it would be easy to prove and hold them to. As it stands it allows for all manner of sins in fitting replacement windows in the UK, so long as the 'making good' is done to a reasonable standard. I also think that as far as common practice seems to be with Internorm installers, they can claim 'will be fit with Internorm's recommended installation methods'. This is misleading to the average consumer, who would logically believe this to provide a higher standard of fit than for a cheaper window such as a low cost UPVC one. I am going to put in a formal complaint in to Internorm about this. With energy prices so high, it wouldn't surprise me if this becomes a more common issue in the UK, as an increasing amount of regular punters who are in the market for replacement double glazing as a once in a lifetime purchase, get sold Internorm on the 'triple for double' offer, and are not particularly well informed about how important the fit is. I assume this hasn't been such an issue in the past with Internorm's usual customer base (those doing a high spec self-build or extension) since they are often advised by a professional such as an architect, or have probably done more research and are aiming for specific targets. It is a flipping disgraceful carry on if you ask me, especially given the importance of improving airtightness in Britain's poorly insulated housing stock. There should be a moral imperative upon window companies starting from the top down to improve minimum standards of fit given the climate crisis. I would expect this to start with high spec companies like Internorm. If anyone does have a copy of these 'recommended installation methods' I would also be very interested.

Also just to mention, if you don’t have any luck with replacement and they end up making good on what is there, a lot of spray foam will be needed. Ensure they are using an airtight window foam such as Illbruck FM330 gun grade. It’s readily and cheaply available online for next day delivery. And don’t be afraid to hover over them to see what they do and what they are using if they do the making good.

It is so stressful and upsetting isn’t it, I sympathise. On the upside yours is so clearly wrong that you can hopefully get a resolution legally, even potentially replacement and get a good outcome. My one was so frustrating because it was bad but not so bad that it could be fought legally since I didn’t get passive fit written into my contract. So I am stuck with them as they are!

And definitely don't pay them any more money! I would also not let them back on site to do any making good either. Wait till it's been inspected by someone else. They might just try to cover up the dodgy fit with spray foam and trims.

What did they propose when they visited? Have they agreed ‘making good’ on the entire install? It all looks terrible to me (fit and finish). Not just in a fussy internorm passive ‘but I expected the fit to roughly match the airtightness of the windows’ way. It looks so bad that if it is left as pictured they are contravening the basic building regs and you have a clear case against them. And using your old plastic upvc door cill is screaming bodge job, regardless of any ‘making good’. Make sure you put your complaint in writing by email as soon as poss if not already done. Include pics. See if they respond in writing. Do not accept any verbal contact from them. All responses in writing. Then I would contact house insurance legal cover or credit card legal cover and lodge a claim. If you aren’t covered this way try citizens advice bereau. Also complain to Fensa or certass (check who they are registered with) and ask them to do an inspection. And complain to your Internorm rep. The internorm rep will probably offer to come out and take a look (although beware these are salespeople and not surveyors/fitters as far as I’m aware). I would also get an independent surveyor or window expert round to comment in a report. However if you have legal cover they will do this for you. Any costs incurred you should be able to claim back if your legal case is successful.

Craig’s response was ‘Fensa, if they are registered but you could also ask a reputable company or a 3rd party independent surveyor.’

@ClairedM Also see Building regs approved document L, page 61 section 10, 10.3-10.6 on controlled fittings which includes windows and doors in existing dwellings. 10.3 a: units should be draught proofed. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/662a2e3e55e1582b6ca7e592/Approved_Document_L__Conservation_of_fuel_and_power__Volume_1_Dwellings__2021_edition_incorporating_2023_amendments.pdf Clearly your install has gaps all over the place and is not draught proofed entirely. As Craig said, if they won't budge you could get FENSA or Certass to look into it (but they take ages to do anything in my experience), and/or take legal action.

How does one go about getting a professional inspection in a case like this? Is there an equivalent of an independent snagging team such as New Home Quality Control but for Internorm window installs? Or are you referring to getting it checked by FENSA or certass? Or a rep from Internorm? Asking for a friend.

Fair enough. I have just realised that Annex B page 44 is actually the building regs for England and Wales. So no weaselling out of those.

Ugh yes it is such a nightmare to have to decide how to take action on jobs like this under such a tight timescale. The key thing on any consumer law complaint is you must voice your complaint in writing (by email) to the company as soon as reasonably possible. I would strongly advise you to send an email detailing the points you take issue with early tomorrow morning at least an hour or so before they arrive to you so they have time to digest it. That way, even if they try and weasel out of it, you can read off the email if needed, and they have a document of what your issues are to look at. I would argue the main point (on the making good) is that your contract is contravening the Consumer Rights Act (2015), since it is a generally accepted industry standard that there is a duty to repair and make good to a basic level internally and externally on replacement window jobs, and it is not unreasonable for you to have expected this (despite their clause stating they will not make good, but don't highlight that). They are also contravening the Building Regulations for England and Wales and GGF guidelines- see Annex B page 44 building regs regarding remedial work and also expectations regarding damp course and moisture penetration which you mentioned is a problem (there is a more updated document here which is keyword searchable: https://www.window-warehouse.co.uk/app/uploads/2022/02/20.3_A_Guide_to_Good_Practice_-_Installation_of_Replacement_Windows_and_Doors_April_2016.pdf ) They are definitely Internorm 1st window partners, and are not adhering to the Internorm customer care standard point 8 ‘All work will be done in a careful manner, clean and properly and will be carried out by a reliable and competent installation team’, and say you will be complaining directly to Internorm about this. @craig other than the making good issue does the general fit look ok?

Looking at it, Ecotec are an Internorm 1st window partner. So the Internorm customer care standard point 8 'All work will be done in a careful manner, clean and properly and will be carried out by a reliable and competent installation team' would apply to them. I would complain to Internorm that Ecotec aren't making removal of rubbish and a basic level of making good part of their Internorm contracts, and are therefore contravening point 8 that they are not leaving the job in a 'clean' state. I would do this even if they agree to fix yours, just so that Internorm are aware of their practices.

That term is clear that their quoted installation cost does not include making good. It would appear that unless this term contravenes a basic statutory right such as those laid out in the Consumer Rights Act or the GGF guidelines, or is classed as 'unfair' then you don't have a legal right to demand they do this (check with someone qualified legally on this though). See page 29 of GGF guidelines and also CRA info: https://www.lyonsdavidson.co.uk/consumer-rights-act/ I am not the most experienced renovator having only bought windows from 2 companies before, but even for the budget UPVC windows I bought the company did have in the terms and conditions that they would make good, and remove rubbish. Removal of rubbish and a basic level of making good is usually quoted for in most work involving tradespeople as far as I know. Surely it is an industry standard that there is a basic level of making good and that they won't for example leave a gaping hole exposing your cavity wall? But then again this industry seems to be full of cowboys who try to do the minimum possible for the maximum price it would seem. Sorry Ecotec but this is a poor level of service, even if legally you can do nothing about it. Someone should have asked you if you wanted it finished off to a basic repair level and rubbish removed when they were doing the quote if it's not something they do as standard. I would complain to them in writing by email, about how it would be reasonable to expect this to be included in the quote from a reputable company if there was 'reasonable care' paid to the job. The consumer rights act requires tradespeople to apply 'reasonable care and skill'. From the CRA: 'It is generally accepted that relevant to whether a person has met the standard of reasonable care and skill are industry standards or codes of practice'. I am not sure what the industry standard is though, GGF guidelines seem to agree that it is dependent on the contract. If you have house insurance legal cover I recommend checking your rights on this with them before agreeing to sign off. Or if not contact the Citizens advice bureau.

I'm afraid I'm not suitably qualified to comment on whether this is a satisfactory install and the particular issues with fit, I am currently going through my own nightmare with a poorly fitted Internorm install. I can only comment on what I've found out so far from the contractual side of things. Beyond the legal minimums, the expected quality of fit is dependant on whether you specified a passiv install or not? Regarding making good, my window contract states: The Company will make good any damage caused in the course of installation to plaster, floor, rendering or brickwork immediately surrounding any window or door installed. The Company will not be responsible for any redecoration. The company does not guarantee to avoid causing superficial damage to surrounding wallpaper, paint work, floor covering or wall tiles in the same area. The company accepts no responsibility for any damage resulting from structural or other defects in the building, particularly where lintels are not fitted over existing windows to support the brickwork above.' Does yours state anything like this that you could easily hold them to? All UK window installs have to be fit to the minimum legal standard which I believe are the GGF guidelines detailed here: https://cwgchoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/the-good-practice-guide-for-the-installation-of-replacement-windows-and-doors.pdf. Have a look at this and see what it details regarding finish. As far as I understand, the standards on minimum required levels of insulation around the frames are vague, so I am not sure how to argue this (I am currently going through this myself). But obviously at a minimum all windows and doors should be watertight and without wind whistling through so if they are not when the job is finished then you have a clear case and your installer will have to rectify this. If your installer is one of the Internorm 1st window partners or higher, they have to meet the 10 Internorm customer care standards: https://www.internorm.com/en-uk/distribution-partner/1st-window-partner which has a vague line 'all work will be done in a careful manner, clean, and properly'. And you could argue this is not being met. If they are a partner then installs should be done in accordance with 'Internorm's recommended installation methods'. This was also stated in my window contract so might be on yours. Now what these are, again, is massively vague. I contacted Internorm to check these and I got a response back from my local rep that 'it depends on the envelope of the building', so I described my buildings envelope and asked for the details of the methods and received no further response. Another forum member has previously told me they believe they are no more than the legal minimum GGF guidelines, i.e. the spec that all windows need to be fitted to. Hence all the problems with poor Internorm installs, when most rational people would expect a high spec window to be fitted to a high spec as standard. I am starting to think there should be a subforum solely dedicated to unexpectedly poor Internorm installs. You could email Internorm UK with a complaint and ask to be referred to your local rep who might get involved if you cannot resolve with your installer: https://uk.internorm.com/contact/ Good luck!

Also to be fair the sealing tape is the least of our problems. The windows were 2cm too short but that’s another matter and a different thread.