vab89

so i got in touch with the council development officer who pointed me to tree officer who recommended a local tree consultant who said following once i explained what i wanted and showed the pic: "It would be too close. Not only would it result in an excessive RPA incursion, but it would also be within the structural root zone, which is a no-no. The only feasible looking option would be to remove the tree, to facilitate the development. Is it protected?" i replied its TPO. still waiting on response but based on this it seems extension is a no go :(

thanks for your reply. so based on this, in your opinion, does it sound like it still makes sense to organize the arboriculturist visit & report followed by a builder visit with a high-level cost estimate to give us an idea and then start with the planning consultant? had a quick (very) google and it seems that 2m-3m should be expected either way for a 2-storey extension foundation...so suppose the only thing is that we wouldnt be saving money on foundation by going 1 storey only due to presence of the tree...HOWEVER it does potentially mean that we could do a 1 storey extension for now and have the foundation be proof for a future 2nd storey extension on top potentially further down the line? suppose its more structural engineer job to advise on foundations but i assume builder should have some idea too about options available in such scenario? many thanks again

thank you for your reply. i assume that a 2.15m depth foundation requirement is prohibitively expensive? if we want to get wider e.g. 1m away then foundation needs to be 2.35m....what does this info mean for a potential cost estimate? +10-20k? or basically, renders this whole plan so moot that theres not even a point in inviting arboriculturist? will planning simply reject anything less than 2.35m foundation? many thanks for replying with these details!

thank you for your reply. apologies for the late response - got caught up in the festive period. hope everyone had a lovely christmas! It is a lime tree. measured today and circumference is c.270cm so diameter should be roughly 86cm. The garage is currently 2.6m x 5.4m and the closest point to tree is 3m away exactly. we would increase the width by 90-120cm if possible Clay ground Ive attached some more images showing the front and back of the garage (note the tials are 60cm for reference). the distance from garage to edge of house is 2.3m. based on this then i think the maximum length is around 7m (60cm backwards and 2m forward - although it would mean either making the meter readers internal or moving them) and then however much we can extend sideways from current 2.6m (so perhaps 3.8m? ie 2 tiles). this would mean moving our current shed and a pretty small space for entrance next to tree...giving a grand total of around 26.6 footprint (and smaller internal space). so perhaps just under the desired size. really it does seem that a two floor would probably be much better choice size wise i suppose the question is it seems would the roots present an issue to the foundation needed for this if perhaps a front wrap around porch extension is not a feasible idea then perhaps the entrance can come from a small conservatory extension which can serve as the entrance into the side extension? ie grandma would need to enter via side gate, walk down garden and enter via conservatory? this way still connected to main house so shouldnt cause issues?

thank you very much. very helpful. is it of concern that architects didnt immediately guide me to this approach? option 3 did mention it but he seemed convinced it would be fine but that we would just engage a tree survey to show council why its not too big of an issue.

tbh fine with 1 storey, just thought that design-wise it might have been easier to get through with 2 storey as same look as house. but at same time even croydons own guidance document https://www.croydon.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-01/spd2-suburban-design-guide-chapter-4-residential-extensions-and-alterations.pdf appears to show pictures of lots of awful designs that appear to have been approved (or atleast built :D) the other reason was that the logic was that with 2 storeys less need to expand side ways. but again, 2 storey/mezzanine not a hill to die on. thank you for guiding on the terminology. so jut to confirm then this arboriculturist survey can be leveraged & used in the planning process either way? we wouldnt need to do any subsequent other tree surveys? it kind of seems like as soon as the architechts heard me mention the TPO tree (and one saw it in person & granted mentioned it might have been a problem) should have said "first step, before you hire us, do a arboriculturist survey first to understand if this is possible", am i right? & yes you are probably right, it must have been sooo much smaller back in 1990s. see below pic i couldnt measure it exactly due to access issues but id say its atleast 1.5m diameter and def within 12x1.5m of the main house, let alone the garage. for reference those tiles are c60cm. the garage footprint is c.2.6-2.7m so we would need to expand atleast 60-1.2m ideally sideways if 1 storey. there is a manhole cover close to where those yellow hoses are so cant really go sideways and backwards...but thankfully 1-2m can go forward before getting to edge of front of house you talking about all in option 1 & 2? yes i tend to agree. although the architectural design quotes seem roughly OK? option 3 said 1 storey would be c400-500 cheaper (so 1.2k+VAT) thank you for detailed response. is that even the case when the extension clearly couldnt be registered as a seperate unit (ie no seperate utilities, no seperate address, below req. meterage?) could this be solved by front porch extension which then has entrance to both main home and to the extension? apologies for the childish looking sketch but just did this in 30 seconds to illustrate what i mean. sadly because our entrance is in the middle it might mean quite a big "wrap around porch extension / side extension" kind of approach versus home designs where entrance is at the side....tbh all architects told me that a separate entrance might be an issue but the approach to take is simply to have internal entrance then simply add a separate one later after all planning granted and go for change of design (i think) or simply not mention it....and if needed close over the internal one. for us it would be our utilitiy room where the wall adjoining the garage has some wardrobes...so technically thats what the door would be behind... i checked and i believe the only article 4 restriction was no HMO. regarding the drainage etc questions - is this something that a builder would be able to answer at the same time they do the hole digging to investigate the suitability of the existing foundation (assuming the arboriculturist tree survey says shouldnt be an issue)? many thanks for all the detailed suggestions! nothing wrong with being mr negative. i am mr negative too usually nothing more negative than wasting 5-6k unnecessarily. would the garage (and foundation) have likely been created in a way that it would be able to support a second floor on top? part of the problem is on its own footprint the area is probably a tad too small. id need to remeasure it with someones help but i think externally its like 2.7x4x (maybe 5 at most)...i want to say its maybe 12sqm internally..and currently has the boiler and pipes either way which we want to move so i think the only option would be to knock down and build in its place. but yes 100% no need for new post address. mention it in this reply above but yes most architects suggested putting connecting door internally in schematics and planning approval and then just either adding external door after the fact or try get a subsequent additional planning change as well (perhaps approach it from POV of "when were away we dont want to have whole house be opened for use for safety reasons etc hence the seperate entrance"). again thank you everyone for all your replies & inputs!

thanks for the pointer. i suppose this sounds like a separate issue to the root problem. are you saying the council would have data on the type of soil in the area that they may be able to share that i would then be able to bring up in any convo with the builders? thanks for raising this point. wouldnt this be the same issue with a normal 2nd storey floor or no? would some sort of exit window with drop down ladder or something not work? tbh struggling to think how we would escape from the current house if say the stairs was on fire...the window design is quite hard to fully open and even then its a straight down drop to ground floor...

hi thank you very much for your post. this is very insightful. the architects did bring up potential concerns about TPO trees but never mentioned this thing specifically. ill have a quick measure tomorrow (as well as post the pic) but id hazard a guess that the outer most edge would def. be within 12x the diameter of the tree. so i suppose that means that its much more likely that a single storey would make most sense as presumably the existing foundation should be good enough as the structure wouldnt be much different from the garage in footprint (although potentially would get closer by 1m sideways) but shouldnt need to go "down" as much. my concen for single storey was that potentially that it might fall foul of the whole "keeping same look and feel of the area". as you can see from the pic i posted its quite a boxy house and im wondering whether single storey might just look a bit naff? suppose if the tree roots would be the issue then probably not much choice either way in the matter...unless the foundation req. would still likely be more than what we have? so would the recommendation be first to speak to a tree surgeon to determine how far the likely roots go or is the RPA set in stone no matter what? and then after that ask builder to dig some holes to see the type of foundation there is to determine if its good enough for 1 or 2 storey? in any case i think the footprint might need to be expanded as from memory the garage is under 3m in width... thank you again for your informative response.

thanks for response. i think part of the reason for thinking about mezzanine approach is that ideally the floor space would be 18-20sqm downstairs for kitchennette/shower/toilet/living space and 10-12ish upstairs for bedroom, however if going for standard 2 storey, 20sqm x 2 is just above the limit for something to be potentially considered seperate dwelling and we didnt want council to think that thats the cheeky backdoor route were going for....but at same time 15sqm x 2 seems kind of unbalanced for the 2 floors...just a bit too small potentially on the ground floor and a bit too much on upper...but well need to double check. we actually have a garden office that i THINK is 3x5 so is good reference...but it actually might be 3.5 width...been a few years now. 7k inc VAT and the application fees? if so thats about 4.6k for architectural / structural /building control etc....which seems to fall in line with what we might be facing (or slightly more expensive by 1k ish)...do you think for this project it should be much lower? it seems the architechtural / design is appropriate quote at around 1.5-1.7k....should we be aiming lower for structural engineer / building control? we havent sourced any quotes for that yet individually so just guesttimating that it would be between 1-1.5k too... ill post a pic tomorrow morning but it think its a bit misleading. the tree is massively tall but the actual crown covering everything is super high up. the lower branches would just barely touch a proposed 2 storey development and if it was a 1.5 storey mezzanine approach i dont think it would touch at all. weve previously had successfull application to trim the branches before. when you say original planning for documents, would that have been likely part of the docs given to us when we bought house? or in land registry or something? great idea on the foundation stuff. how much would such an exercise cost usually? is there any point involving a tree surgeon before going through with the planning / architectural design? would they be straight up and say "nah this wont be an issue from a branch POV if the foundation is ok" or would they still try and get engaged on a £500 tree report either way? i suppose it would help any application to include it either way so wouldnt hurt? many thanks again for everyones response

option 3 has been very open about letting us get in touch for references and his firm has been on companies house since 2010 (micro accounts)...no social media presence...so def not juicing anything....option 4 only since Jun 23...soit sounds like option 1-2 is prob too rich for this type of project, option 4 probably a bit sketchy / inexperienced so option 3 the best....ive looked at my local community facebook group to get some recommended builder recommendations and the first 2 i called said theyd be happy to give high level initial estimate based on some descriptions / pictures so guess ill do that too to see how realistic budget is... i saw this picture before and i think it was very helpful...i suppose a £1.7k+ vat design fee makes sense based on this...not sure what the £1.2k "specification / schedules/tender prices" bit is, but suppose the £1.5k-2.25k covers things like building control and structural engineer drawings...so again makes sense....question is whether we need the delivery bit for £4.5k (and sounds like much more in the quotes we received)...and based on responses here sounds like no...

Hi all thank you for your response. Ive been told that its useless to try and come up with builder estimates as they can only guess until they see the structural / architectural / building control drawings and i suppose on one hand it make sense but on the other hand i suppose it could also be a ploy to get the sale done. in terms of pics see attached. goolge images since havent really got any personal ones on hand but they give an idea - its a cul de sac, 1990s build development. those massive trees you see are TPOs. ive outlined in red box where we want to knock down garage and replace with side extension. the frontal image of the house is actually our neighbours (the one in the middle) but it looks exactly the same (their garage is the one attached to ours, ours isnt). in terms of £120k budget being potentially small..assuming 6-7k in total architectural/building control/structural / application fees, 25k for fittings (kitchenette, shower, etc), that leaves around 2.5k + VAT per sqm. is it much higher than that? should we be budgeting 3-4k? and any thoughts on potential cost of e.g. 20sqm 1st floor + mezzannine vs 30sqm 2 storey? or is that more suited to another sub forum here? many thanks all!

Hi all new to this forum & apologies if this is wrong section (costing & estimate sub seemed more to do with actual build). We want to add a double storey self containned 30sqm side extension (ie 15sqm each floor) to our house (SE London conservation area) by replacing existing garage structure. Nothing fancy but ideally a separate entrance (but no new address, same utilities etc) with kitchenette, toilet, shower etc. No neighbours to the side of the building within 5-10m and plenty of space so dont expect any issues on that front. only potential issue is a TPO tree that is in the corner of the garden I've contacted several architectural / design & build agencies to get the quotes for what it would cost from start to finish before the actual work gets done (ie planning,architectural, structural, building control) and have received some widely diff quotes. Appreciate some arent as inclusive and dont include the PM element but either way its hard to compare. Was hoping to get some advice on whether to go for the more expensive ones as they are all in vs the cheaper ones which might actually end up costing roughly same once all is considered: Option 1 (highly recommended on local FB group, featured in various publications such as: "Your Property Network, Inside Property Investing, Best of Houzz Design, Archant etc): £8.3k inc. VAT All in package including: Measured Site Survey of Proposed Project area; Design Concept and Development Drawings with Revisions; Drawings and Planning Application Submission to Local Authority, Certificate of Lawful Development, Prior Notification etc. *Planning Fee Inc.; Structural Calculations/Drawings; Building Reg. Drawings - excluded, PM - 10% of build cost. Assuming 1.5-2k / sqm shell build cost + outfitting 20k = 6.5-8k PM costs all in cost 15k - 17k? Option 2: (highly recommended in local FB group): All in package excluding local authority costs and structural engineer (but fixed PM costs): £10k (inc VAT) + 1.2k planning / building reg app costs + structural engineer (1.5k?) = £12.3k estimate cost. Option 3: South London Architectural design firm: Only ones to do on site visit. Got really good vibe from him. Boutique 2 person firm operating for 15 years, Liverpool grad, c.8yrs experience before own firm. £1.7k+VAT fee for architectural design/planning application submission. Planning submission costs excluded. Assuming 1-1.5k + VAT for building reg & structural engineer each that would take us to £4.5-6k in fees + planning submission costs of £1.2k... Option 4: Small new firm based in same LA (with public site/location to walk in & chat etc) young firm, <2years, director in touch has civil engineering background (however think hes just BD / PM. appears they have structural engineers etc do the work). lots of reviews on google but i wonder how "real" they are. much more than ive seen for other firms that have been around and i know have organic positive feedback e.g. local facebook group. keep playing up the fact that they arent VAT registered, have trade discount deals etc. quoted £1.5k for planning/architectural design & submission then on top of that c£800 for building control and technical design (ie structural etc). Not sure how to evaluate / judge it. The lower price might make sense for perhaps those dealing with less high end Projects... Should i keep looking? i feel option 1-2 might be a bit too much for what is a simple project imo. similar firms have had their extensions featured in newspaper articles for stunning design etc and honestly were not going for that. we just want a side box extension...nice and simple...i like the fact that option 3 came on site, even if we need to book everything seperate atleast were not liable for big chunky 6-8k fee even if unsuccessful application (e.g. option 1 essentially paying 75% excl PM no matter what)...but scared that without any PM oversight we might run into issues... also a more general question...is it realistic to get a self contained side extension with seperate entrance assuming its for grandma who currently lives in main house? no separate address, no seperate utilities etc...but want the privacy of seperate living. it wont be any where near the minimum reqs for studio/1bedroom flat (36-39sqm i believe)...or would our only option be to do the side extension and also have a porch extension so that it has 2 seperate entrances to main house & side extension? Finally more of a design / cost question - were currently thinking 30sqm, 2 seperate floors and budgeting e.g. 1.5-2.5k + VAT for that. Would the cost be lower if we went for e.g. 20 sqm 1st floor but elevated height & essentially had a mezzanine/loft/"entresol" type 2nd floor, something like this: our desired max budget is prob around £120k. would be great to understand if this is a bit of a pipe dream. many thanks for any help / advice suggestions.