HJB

Hi As per my other post I have been subject to a landscaping disaster. I will be having a professional look at this, but I am just look for some advice, on lift and re using the sand stone paving? Are these fairly easy to come back up and then re use? Looking at some you tub vids it does seem to be that they lift up, with the mortar bed attached and a couple knocks with a hammer and chisel and it falls off leaving the slab in tacked. Anyone able to provide ant advise? Thanks

I showed them the paving suppliers guides that have no mention of the word sand, they still claim this is the proper way and and done this 1000s of time and no issues! They said the DPC is not an issue as the patio stops short of the house, and water has to cross a aqua channel drain, plus a 15mm soakaway chips channel before getting to the vents. I did kind of bring work to a hault, but as I stupidly paid out 50% up front to cover material and the initial labour and also I cant have the garden left as at is over winter until I can get it sorted, plus they were starting to bang on about labour so far has been over the 50%. `I thought best to proceed, challenge this at the end and potentially withhold final payment until its checked out, although I think they may have done just enough to cover themselves. I have all emails kept where he states what he is doing is correct, and that he offers a guarantee for 10 years, so if I want to stand any chance I think I have to get some flood defense items, and when the next down pour happens film it and they start the battle with him. As you rightly mentioned I have enough info supplied here and thank you to all you kind people for your help, unfortunately for me the war is just beginning, and least I still have final payment to make, but not sure who I can get to back me on this, doesn't seem to be regulated. I could email my local council planning office with some photos for advice but not sure they will be overly interested. Sadly I think I will have to admit defend and wait for battle to commence down the line. The best bit for me is the suppliers guide to a sub base and has a photo of a guy laying the paiving on the mortar mix and guess whats under the mortar, type 1!!!!!

It’s too far gone, only thing I can do is get someone in to check but then it’s just one word vs another not sure what I would be able to achieve. I may have to ride it out until something happens like water into the vents and then I have evidence to go back to them on. My other option is rip it all up in the summer and start again, losing out on thousands! I don’t get why they didn’t dig it out, I pay for the digger, labour, and skips!

I suspect making it up as they go along to suit there needs to complete the job. Nothing worse when things like this happen, trust in someone to deliver to your spec and within standards set by the industry. Anyone ever had to sue a trades person before. I suspect they will have done just enough to keep they head above water. No idea how their reviews are so good. Maybe people don’t take note during the build.

I presumed the bottom of vents were the DPC? They are prob going to be 50mm at best below the vents

Does anyone know if there is a governing body that you can get to check this kind of work? Major concern now is that the level is not 150mm below the air vents. They have said a thin row of chips and the aqua channels means it will be ok but tbh I am at the stage now I would like someone authorised to check the work.

I think I found what he meant when he referred to sealed. This is for larger construction work form what I can read this blinding layer. “In construction, blinding is a base layer of weak concrete or sand that is laid above a layer of hardcore to provide a clean, level and dry working surface. A thin layer, usually around 50 mm (2 inches) thick, of blinding is poured over the hardcore, sealing in the underlying material and leveling off the surface”,

I also think he lays the gro fabric on top of the sharp sand before the mortar mix which would make the bond even worse...?

I yes typo on my part 30-40mm Yes what you are saying is spot on about it lifting, the sand to type 1 is weaker than mortar to type 1.

Partner is a solicitor so that’s covered, I imagine it will be a claim against the full lot not just a repair. yeah I checked and it will be a proper pointing that’s wet.

I'd say a lot of wasted unneeded materials and labour going into it, just to increase the chances of something going wrong

yeah fully agree with you. I cant understand why they are so amendment by this way. Like I said before cant be cost, and its not to save on labour as its more work, work comes with 10 year guarantee also so in my eyes they are setting themselves up for a massive fail. I just cant comprehend why they would do more work for something that isnt needed, its normally the other way round. There are amendment that the sand is needed to provide the bond and fill the space in the type 1. It seems to be a bed of about 300 -400mm sand, its hard to tell.

My question to them was what is the added benefit of this additional layer of sharp sand. The response was and I quote "for all sandstone paving is a sub base of type1 then compact, then the layer of sharp sand and compact followed by the mortar and slabs. " No other evidence other than that. They have photos going back 6 years on Insta/facebook...have 5 stars and recommended a lot. I cant be the only one to have questioned this...surely! Maybe just nothing has gave way yet on the work they have done.

Too far into in now, and cant have the garden left the way it is over winter. I've taken photos through their work, have it in writing what they are saying so if it all goes wrong I will hopefully have some come back!

The slabs are sandstone though not Concrete slabs The sandstone will be going on a full bed of cement and sand mix as per how sandstone should be. Everything I read or watch says that above the 100mm type 1 should be sand/cement full bed mix, but these guys are putting in a layer of sharp sand, it just makes no sense, and its more work...I am hoping someone can shine some light to it. Its not cost as from what I can see type 1 and sharp sand is about the same, so if anything if costing me more for this layer, and costing them more time...pointless As it turns out the Geo Fab has not been placed between the Type1 and Sand, so god knows where this is going now possible between the sand and sand/cement mortar mix

I've been through this with them but they are amendment this is the way its done and the way they do it all the time, they have done load and good reviews. By not doing it this was could impact their 10 year guarantee also...apparently. It's bizarre as its actually extra work for them to put in this extra layer of sand that is not needed, more effort moving it all round to the back garden...I am trying to work out if its corner cutting and if so what corners are they cutting. In my eyes its more work, more martial that is not needed and its only adding risk to the sub base build that is not needed. I am baffled!!

Yes this is what he said, I have no idea what he meant by this, I can only think he is referring to the Geo Fabric as a seal !!! He has told me the process is....for all sandstone paving is a sub base of type1 then compact, then the layer of sharp sand and compact followed by the mortar and slabs. He has put this in writing so I now have some come back should I need it, he never mentioned the Geo fabric in the email, but I have gone back to confirm that he is putting Geo fabric betweem Type 1 and sand. I know form what I've read across various websites, inc manufacturers and watched many installs online this is not correct. I have read on some occasions sharp sand can be used as a very thin coating to bind into the type 1 and fill any gaps. However if he uses Geo fabric between then that eliminates any binding.

Yeah that is my exact worry is the sand underneath starts to wash out, there is no need to put the sand between there levels other than as you said its easier to level sand than it is onto type 1. The company comes with good reviews, but from Day 1 I have been extremely worried, the sharp sand between the layers has just made me loose all confidence in them. To far in to say just walk off, and its the way they do it, already said I've never head of sharp sand between Type1 and Cement.

I can not see the point in this layer of sharp sand either. if anything add more type 1 and whack to level. They said they do it this way all the time and have really good reviews but a guarantee on install for 10 years. I have just never heard or seen it done this way. Should I be a concerned with this layer of sharp sand? He said on top of type 1 is geo fabric, sharp sand to level out, whacked down, sealed and then the mortar mix (not dot and dab) full bed per slab as it is laid.

Hi I am having new patio put down, sand stone. There has been Type1 min 100mm whacked down. The next step I thought was a sand/cement mix mortar that the sandstone is laid onto, on a 1 by 1 basis. However they are going to do the above, but before the mortar mix goes down, Geo fabrix is going down and sharp sand then whacked down? I've never heard of it being done this way?

Its the only way I thought to get the fall to both side, maybe it can be done without a ridge and laid a certain way to do this. I dunno but there needs to be something along that sleeper so not everything is pointing to the house.

It’s this or very similar Natural paving classic stone.

There is 100mm of type 1 been laid and whacked also. I just thought it would have been best to removed the old sand then put type 1 down. the patio will be raised for this very reason, they removed the old slabs but not anything else underneath so by the time you put on 100mm type1, whatever the sand/cement mix is and the height of the sandstone must be out 150-200mm higher that the previous one. I am thinking of telling them to put a drain in where the sleeper is, (the original request) and have a slight ridge so water will run off to both, so it’s not all heading towards the house. I think this will do the trick, not ideal as didn’t want 2 channel drains on show but if it helps water flow then it’s the best option. see attached

The patio was sinking and uneven which is why I wanted this dug out. It wasnt whacked prior to typ1, the type 1 was put on top then whacked. The grass was removed and leveled to the old sand. The original request was to have the drain along the sleeper and then run house to sleeper (grass side), but as they havnt dug down, they now said on day 2 the run has to point towards the house and drain needs to be move the that side.

Hi I am having a new patio installed and have a couple questions. The guys that are doing it are removing some existing turf to extend out and lift the old patio. However they said they can just put type 1 over the existing sand that was under the patio, then on top of the type1 it will be the sand/cement mix for sandstone. Is this correct or should the old sand be removed also? Regarding drainage I had asked a drainage grid be put in along the sleeper edge on the far side of the patio where the grass is (grass, then a sleeper height drop to the patio), but they are saying the way it will need to be laid, they would be best running the drainage grid along the house side of the patio. I have always read dont run these along side of house. The pipe is getting tided into the rain water downpipe for info. Any advice on this? See attached Photos purple lines are the drainage grid, on both options... the 2.4m line is a step down from house. The Red line is Sleeper side where grass is.