A Home Cinema Living Room

[puntloos]

... while taking into account WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) and not turning the living space into a dark noiseless cave  (*)

Any of you spend some time on things like:

- Room shape design? 

- Flooring material? (wife doesn't like carpet throughout.. are there any good-looking materials you considered?)

- Speaker placement?

- Less-than-maximum-size screen? (what is 'too big'?)

 

Would love to see pictures, designs. What does your Cinema Living Room look like? Did it work like you expected? What would you do differently?

 

Thanks!

 

(*) FWIW, the 'Ideal' Home cinema is probably:

-- a windowless room, probably basement?

- acoustic dampening  material on every surface,

- 36 degree viewing angle (as THX recommends) to calculate screen size vs seating distance (which works out to e.g. 4m wide screen, with 6m seating distance)

- Straight projector throw

- 7.1.4 speaker setup (yep, 12 speakers scattered around)

- Non-rectangular room shape to reduce standing waves.

-.. more?

[jack]

11 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Any of you spend some time on things like:

- Room shape design? 

- Flooring material? (wife doesn't like carpet throughout.. are there any good-looking materials you considered?)

- Speaker placement?

- Less-than-maximum-size screen? (what is 'too big'?)

 

Short answer: no. While I love hifi and home cinema, I just couldn't justify the extra costs of doing properly.

 

That said, were I to build again, I'd spend more time on soundproofing the TV room and probably make it a bit bigger. I did put speaker cable into the walls, but only for 4 channels (on the assumption that wiring for a subwoofer and centre channel could be hidden behind furniture at the front of the room). Still haven't wired anything up - time and money yet to be allocated!

[Declan52]

I bought a cheap Chinese projector from Amazon. It gives me a HD quality screen of 3m X 2.5m at it's max. The smaller I make it the clearer it becomes. As my walls are painted white I didn't have to buy a screen. 

For sound I just use a soundbar with a sub woofer. I connect my firestick to it via a HDMI port so can use it to stream films, TV series or football or whatever else I need. 

All in counting the extra long cables as everything is on the other wall, sods law, it was less than £200.

[Bitpipe]

42 minutes ago, puntloos said:

... while taking into account WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) and not turning the living space into a dark noiseless cave  (*)

Any of you spend some time on things like:

- Room shape design? 

- Flooring material? (wife doesn't like carpet throughout.. are there any good-looking materials you considered?)

- Speaker placement?

- Less-than-maximum-size screen? (what is 'too big'?)

 

Would love to see pictures, designs. What does your Cinema Living Room look like? Did it work like you expected? What would you do differently?

 

 

We specced a basement room as home cinema - it's not windowless, has generous lightwells front and back (2m wide).

 

Ran the necessary power & cat 6 cables in roof for projector feed, control and screen and corner speakers also but have never got round to fitting out.  Teenage son uses as his den, xbox, tv, guitars & drum kit.

 

We watch TV in living room with a decent 55" tv and budget home cinema speakers in corners - works fine.

 

Can't really see ever building a proper cinema - if I want a decent movie experience I'll go to the local cinema deluxe with the big flat bed style seats and cracking sound.

 

[puntloos]

2 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

 

We specced a basement room as home cinema - it's not windowless, has generous lightwells front and back (2m wide).

 

Ran the necessary power & cat 6 cables in roof for projector feed, control and screen and corner speakers also but have never got round to fitting out.  Teenage son uses as his den, xbox, tv, guitars & drum kit.

 

We watch TV in living room with a decent 55" tv and budget home cinema speakers in corners - works fine.

 

Can't really see ever building a proper cinema - if I want a decent movie experience I'll go to the local cinema deluxe with the big flat bed style seats and cracking sound.

 

 

To each their own of course. I think there's something to be said for the cinema experience, but I am convinced I can turn my living room into quite the acceptable approximation (all audio equipt, projector and 4m wide screen that will retract back into the ceiling if not in use) for below 10,000, excluding the 'build cost' of fitting the screen into the ceiling

 

5 mins of Googling (but I have a lot of earlier knowledge, so this is not a bad set) just gave me this:

- Retractable Screen: Screen International - 1500

- 4K Projector: Optoma - 2500

- 7.1.2 speakers: Klipsch - 4000

- 4K Media Streamer: NVidia Shield - 200

- Receiver: Marantz 7012 - 800

 

9000. Worth it? Up to you of course, but the above is pretty low on compromises without going audiophile-nuts.  There's a lot of fat to trim, I think you can bring it down to even 5000ish.

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by puntloos

[Onoff]

Of course no home cinema is complete without seating...

 

 

http://www.skyart.com/aircraft-seats/skyline-recaro-electronic-first-class-seat-single/

 

My cousin in Florida had similar in his cinema / gun room. From a 747 I think

...

[Jeremy Harris]

Back when I was in a band in the late 60's/early 70's, our Transit had a row of ex-airliner seats behind the front seats.  IIRC we picked them up from RAF Northolt, some years after the infamous Pan Am 707 landed there thinking it was Heathrow.  To take off again they had to strip everything out of the aircraft and leave it behind, as the runway at Northolt's a fair bit shorter than Heathrow.  One thing that I saw had changed, when flying into Northolt many years later, was that they had painted a large arrow on top of a gasometer on the approach, with the letters "NO".  They were an abbreviation for "Northolt", but I think everyone who's ever made that approach has thought they were intended to "just say NO" to any commercial pilots making another mistake...

[Onoff]

38 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Back when I was in a band in the late 60's/early 70's, our Transit had a row of ex-airliner seats behind the front seats.  IIRC we picked them up from RAF Northolt, some years after the infamous Pan Am 707 landed there thinking it was Heathrow.  To take off again they had to strip everything out of the aircraft and leave it behind, as the runway at Northolt's a fair bit shorter than Heathrow.  One thing that I saw had changed, when flying into Northolt many years later, was that they had painted a large arrow on top of a gasometer on the approach, with the letters "NO".  They were an abbreviation for "Northolt", but I think everyone who's ever made that approach has thought they were intended to "just say NO" to any commercial pilots making another mistake...

 

Can't think of the 70's group but as an 17 year old apprentice our firm's mechanic had been their roadie/mechanic. They would take a MK1 diesel Transit and fit a 3.0 Essex and a few aircraft seats in the back. It was a quick, incognito way of getting to gigs as in a battered old van whilst the fans mobbed the tour bus.

 

The bonus for me was all the company cars were Fords and I had my own Ford Capri. I never, ever paid for a service part and used to get ridiculous main dealer discounts for stuff like trim. He'd waltz in to our office with a box of service parts and dump them on my desk saying "Ramps free at lunchtime!". Sometimes if he was free he'd even service it for me. My boss didn't mind as he didn't drive & I used to run him home.

 

Happy days!

Edited May 3, 2019 by Onoff

[ragg987]

This is a *topic* for me (gotta have an outlet!), in our new house i have a dedicated cinema and audio room in the basement that is optimised to reduce room modes, sound-proofed (room-within-a-room) and sitting on a floating floor. Also dedicated 40A mains supply with 15A sockets in a spur arrangement. And adding acoustics treatment over time.

 

In a lounge it is about balancing the purposes, the equipment is only a small part and in reality the easy part as you pay the money, plug it in and it works. Some factors that move you from "having equipment" to "cinema experience", roughly in order of importance:

• room dimensions and shape - lot of info and calculators around, look at Cardas ratio. I leaned heavily on this research http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/?content=best
• wall / floor / ceiling materials. e.g. hard (concrete, brick) or resilient (e.g. board)
• light control - for proper cinema experience you need to block out light, we used cassette blackout blinds in a regular window in our previous lounge, work very well
• acoustic treatment in room - e.g. to control bass and reduce or scatter reflections. Do not cover all surfaces, you will kill all the high frequencies. E.g. some rugs over a wooden floor, drapes at first reflection points, soft furniture, bookcases. Bass traps are a big help but the WAF is lowest here. Not used these but higher WAF? https://www.gikacoustics.com/?product_cat=acoustic-art-panels&s=&post_type=product
• acoustic isolation of the room? big topic and expensive to do properly. or get headphones.
• if using a projector an electric drop-down screen is best
• BUT, if you want 4k and HDR then most projectors are no good as they are not bright enough for the higher contrast possible with HDR. Unless you spend mega-bucks on 4k laser projectors. I have settled for 1080p (HD) on my 92" (diagonal) screen and happy with it. Your 4m wide screen will mean you need a much brighter projector, will be more of a challenge for HDR.
• speaker placement is going to be a compromise. for good audio you need them clear of walls but they become very obtrusive
• seating position - against a wall is worst for audio, in the open space is much better - same compromise as speaker placement
• multiple subs - 2 small subs are better than 1 large one to avoid lumpy bass
• wall colour if using a projector - white walls will kill the cinema feel and reduce contrast on the screen due to reflected light, even in a completely light-controlled room

A note on the Nvidia Shield - it used to not support auto-switching between different frame rates. This means that you will get visual judder if (e.g.) you stream BBC iPlayer at 50fps vs if you play a Bluray at 24fps. This may have been fixed recently, but was not a few months ago. You might be able to manually switch the frame rate in the shield.

[j_s]

Hi guys

Any advice for a lounge that will have home cinema equipment in it. All back to block work. Will be running speaker cable up and over ceiling. 

 

Recommended speaker face plates?

Should I use sound block plasterboard on ceiling and internal walls (baby on the way and he's due in August).

 

Due to original idiot house builders, joists aren't level enough so will already be losing ceiling height so I can't double up plasterboard.

 

Thanks

James

[ragg987]

@j_s have a look here if not already done so.

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by ragg987

[Simplysimon]

recently on, (i think bbc), i liked the item on 4k tv and the optimal distance at which to view. about a metre from the screen!

[puntloos]

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

This is a *topic* for me (gotta have an outlet!), in our new house i have a dedicated cinema and audio room in the basement that is optimised to reduce room modes, sound-proofed (room-within-a-room) and sitting on a floating floor. Also dedicated 40A mains supply with 15A sockets in a spur arrangement. And adding acoustics treatment over time.

 

Why so much mains? Clearly some power is needed but..

 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

 

In a lounge it is about balancing the purposes, the equipment is only a small part and in reality the easy part as you pay the money, plug it in and it works. Some factors that move you from "having equipment" to "cinema experience", roughly in order of importance:

• room dimensions and shape - lot of info and calculators around, look at Cardas ratio. I leaned heavily on this research http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/?content=best

 

Interesting, will peruse. I've already designed my living room to be slightly non-rectangular.

 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

• wall / floor / ceiling materials. e.g. hard (concrete, brick) or resilient (e.g. board)

I'm wondering if there's any way to have a "pretty" floor that's also acceptable in audio characteristics. Somehow, most "pretty" floors seem to be hard - tiles or woods.. 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

• light control - for proper cinema experience you need to block out light, we used cassette blackout blinds in a regular window in our previous lounge, work very well

I probably will do similar, maybe electric.  

Wondering if the same can be done for ceiling lights. 

 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

• acoustic treatment in room - e.g. to control bass and reduce or scatter reflections. Do not cover all surfaces, you will kill all the high frequencies. E.g. some rugs over a wooden floor, drapes at first reflection points, soft furniture, bookcases. Bass traps are a big help but the WAF is lowest here. Not used these but higher WAF? https://www.gikacoustics.com/?product_cat=acoustic-art-panels&s=&post_type=product

Those look great, and you can even add your own designs.

But, I never saw any documents on where to place these, surely not just willy-nilly strewn about..

• acoustic isolation of the room? big topic and expensive to do properly. or get headphones

Headphones? Blasphemy!

 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

• if using a projector an electric drop-down screen is best

Yep that's the plan (and in fact, drop-down projector too)

 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

• BUT, if you want 4k and HDR then most projectors are no good as they are not bright enough for the higher contrast possible with HDR. Unless you spend mega-bucks on 4k laser projectors. I have settled for 1080p (HD) on my 92" (diagonal) screen and happy with it. Your 4m wide screen will mean you need a much brighter projector, will be more of a challenge for HDR.

 

True, the ones I'm looking at are around 1800 lumen, which only suffices in dark rooms, but it should be okay as long as we blind things well enough... I think?

 

- JVC D-ILA N5 - 6000 GBP

or

- Sony VW270ES - 5000 GBP

 

(both are true UHD, so not some clever interleaving technique)

 

But, my house is far from ready, in 1.5 years from now I'll start looking at the current hotness.

 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

• speaker placement is going to be a compromise. for good audio you need them clear of walls but they become very obtrusive

 

My wife accepts my speakers (at least the fronts) being indeed 1m forward from the wall. 

 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

• seating position - against a wall is worst for audio, in the open space is much better - same compromise as speaker placement
• multiple subs - 2 small subs are better than 1 large one to avoid lumpy bass

 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

• wall colour if using a projector - white walls will kill the cinema feel and reduce contrast on the screen due to reflected light, even in a completely light-controlled room

Not sure I understand. Are you saying random walls will reflect light back into the projector screen?

 

4 hours ago, ragg987 said:

A note on the Nvidia Shield - it used to not support auto-switching between different frame rates. This means that you will get visual judder if (e.g.) you stream BBC iPlayer at 50fps vs if you play a Bluray at 24fps. This may have been fixed recently, but was not a few months ago. You might be able to manually switch the frame rate in the shield.

 

Currently it is 'mostly OK'.. I've actually worked directly with nvidia on this through my job. 

 

Thanks for your points, very cool!

[Jeremy Harris]

8 hours ago, puntloos said:

 

Why so much mains? Clearly some power is needed but..

 

 

 

That was my thought, too.  At max load that 40 A supply is going to make the room very toasty, with over 9 kW of heat going into it from the equipment.

[Bitpipe]

44 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

That was my thought, too.  At max load that 40 A supply is going to make the room very toasty, with over 9 kW of heat going into it from the equipment.

 

Obviously because all his volume knobs will go up to eleven, needs the extra power to go one louder.

[ragg987]

11 hours ago, puntloos said:

Why so much mains?

Some form of OCD behavior, perhaps. "Clean power" obsession.

11 hours ago, puntloos said:

Are you saying random walls will reflect light back into the projector screen?

Light will reflect off the screen onto walls and ceiling and reflect back to screen, giving a washed-out appearance.

 

12 hours ago, puntloos said:

both are true UHD, so not some clever interleaving technique

Not talking about 4k / UHD, but HDR. Projectors are a compromise for the very large dynamic range even in a dark room (made worse when light gets reflected back from your white walls!). This is where your large flat-panel TV will beat the projector.

[puntloos]

8 hours ago, ragg987 said:

Some form of OCD behavior, perhaps. "Clean power" obsession.

Light will reflect off the screen onto walls and ceiling and reflect back to screen, giving a washed-out appearance.

 

Not talking about 4k / UHD, but HDR. Projectors are a compromise for the very large dynamic range even in a dark room (made worse when light gets reflected back from your white walls!). This is where your large flat-panel TV will beat the projector.

 

Ah sorry I misread, yes agreed, HDR needs extra lightpower to work.

 

There's calculators for this of course, that seem to say for home cinema with 'reasonably but not obsessively darkened rooms' and/or nighttime, 1600 lumens is sufficient, but my impression is that 2200 is a much more roomy goal. Since I'm just starting our build process I'm hoping prices come down a bit before I'm done, and buy the projector late in the game. (my current 1080p projector is 1600, so it might be interesting to just try it out and see.)

[Tennentslager]

I watched a basketball game in this ‘home’ cinema at my girls dorm, very nice it is too.

Id guess the seats and banking and wall lighting cost more than the tech.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article196135589.html

[joth]

On 04/05/2019 at 18:41, puntloos said:

 

There's calculators for this of course, that seem to say for home cinema with 'reasonably but not obsessively darkened rooms' and/or nighttime, 1600 lumens is sufficient..

 

I hadn't thought about it much before, but now see to get the difference,  but interdependency, between blacking out the room (blocking out light from external sources -- even at night time, you don't want the streetlights etc shining in) and blackening a room (black paint/panels to walls and ceilings). I gather every bit helps, but it's only by doing  both you get the benefits of HDR and a projector with the darkest blacks & shadows, but at the same time if you do do that you can then get away with less lumens. For the rest of us, it's all about brighter bulbs and forget the deepest blacks and HDR.

This review draws the correlation between the colour of the projector itself (white vs black) and whether it's suited to "lifestyle" vs an obsessively blacked out and blackened installation ? 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by joth

[puntloos]

Yeah, tons of compromises to be made everywhere, but I think the 'right' projectors are juuuust appearing - meaning *proper* 4K (most '4K' projectors are not actually 4K..), with reasonable(ish) price and decent lumen even for large screens.