Kim

Steelwork quote seems a lot

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Hi all. 

My builder gave me this quote today and i had no idea it was coming. If you're in the industry could you take a look and see if this sounds right?

 

Two steel plates are required to be added to the top of the steel frames.

They will be welded on site. 

Reason:
This is to carry and support the wall above. 

The wall is 325mm wide and the steel is only 203mm wide and that is why it is necessary to have the steel plates welded to the top.

2 No steel plates @ 325mm x 10mm x 5.3m 
Welder required on site to weld the plates to the steel

Supply and installation

Total £1,495.00

 

Thanks so much for any help given

x

 

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assuming there aren't hidden complexities here (and that this per an engineer's design) I would get a quote for supply of the steel plate - try a local fabricator or two and also a regional stockholder ( I used Parkers and they were cheap and price was very negotiable). Then get a hourly rate for site work from a local welder, and an estimate of the hours. Then you can have a chat with you builder and ask if he's mistakenly added a "1" in front of the price 🙂

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and the other question is whether you should be paying for it at all if the builder has quoted for the work and is working to a set of detailed design drawings. The question I guess is why this add on has become necessary.

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Hmmm.... 

 

Is that an external wall he’s taking about as that will create a horrific cold bridge. It will also give issues with boxing in, and the Structural Engineer will have something to say as you’re adding an additional dead load and torsional load to the top flange. 

 

He is suggesting that 20mm of steel welded on site (assuming its two on top of the top flange) is strong enough to take the load of the wall above (which I expect is 100/125/100 block/cavity/block) and has ignored the strength of the flange itself. 

 

If there is a wide wall, usually the engineer will detail a pair of steels with either bolted or welded together to ensure there is no twisting. 

 

I would ask for calculations first. 

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To weld two flanges? Tell him to 'f*** off and stop taking the utter pi55' . In those exact words. 

 

I would suggest £700 on a really bad day. Go on metals4u for an idea of the price of steel. I'm on my break and phone but can see 6m of black mild steel flat at 300x6mm is £320 to Joe Bloggs.so your raw material is going to be tops £500 to anyone in the trade, plus a welder for a couple of hours. It's not even a complex job, it's welding a plate on to steel. 

 

@MarkyPis right, get local quotes. But I'd be wary of a builder that tries to charge that amount. Watch em like a hawk and sense check back here if need be. 

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46 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Hmmm.... 

 

Is that an external wall he’s taking about as that will create a horrific cold bridge. It will also give issues with boxing in, and the Structural Engineer will have something to say as you’re adding an additional dead load and torsional load to the top flange. 

 

He is suggesting that 20mm of steel welded on site (assuming its two on top of the top flange) is strong enough to take the load of the wall above (which I expect is 100/125/100 block/cavity/block) and has ignored the strength of the flange itself. 

 

If there is a wide wall, usually the engineer will detail a pair of steels with either bolted or welded together to ensure there is no twisting. 

 

I would ask for calculations first. 

I suspect it just adding a flange to an existing rsj or box section. I wonder if it's even actually needed. Def worth checking with SE. 

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2 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

I suspect it just adding a flange to an existing rsj or box section. I wonder if it's even actually needed. Def worth checking with SE. 

 

I agree however adding 325mm to a 203mm means it’s got a 162mm or 81mm each side overhang. If it is a cavity wall, then that means 80% of the load will be on the other edge of the flange which is well past the advised loading on a steel. 

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If the welder on site is expensive bit

bolt them on with contersunk screws from top side and nuts on underside .

maybe it needs to be  thicker plate -but bolting is easy enough .

worst case scenario is hire a MAG drill for half a day 

 

 

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sorry should of said..

 

this is an internal picture frame at the back of the house before a single storey pitched extension on the back.

 

This is for two houses as well.

 

This was missed by building regs 😞 and only included the plating for the external walls. 

 

The walls are 325 and the steel columns 203/203/60

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11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

I agree however adding 325mm to a 203mm means it’s got a 162mm or 81mm each side overhang. If it is a cavity wall, then that means 80% of the load will be on the other edge of the flange which is well past the advised loading on a steel. 

True, would need to see the build up on the at steel. Parker Steel 300mmx10mmx 12m = £300

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This sounds expensive.

 

A bit more info would be useful:

 

Who fitted the steel(s)?

Who did the design?

Is this a solid wall or a cavity wall?

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SE coming out tomorrow. but its all been agreed with architect and BRs guy who fucked up in the first place.

 

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cavity walls 

the steels went up today by my builders

My architect designed everything and building regs missed this (got the right steel though) he even remembered the steel plates required for the extension picture frame but not the internal ones on both house 

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So this is for an external wall that is becoming an internal wall..??

 

if it’s 2 storey, I can’t see how 203 / 203 UC will work as it’s supporting the whole of the back wall plus potentially the floor joists and a wall plate. 

 

Who did the steel design . 

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yes

 

space consulting structural engineers

 

Just had another quote for £1300 as the welding is two guys welding whilst steels in position on site and the plates are £150 each

 

Its not seeming so bad after all

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If the builder fitted the steels as per drawings they may have hoped to have all signed off and be on to other tasks, so are loading the extras quote as "compensation".

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5 minutes ago, Kim said:

yes

 

space consulting structural engineers

 

Just had another quote for £1300 as the welding is two guys welding whilst steels in position on site and the plates are £150 each

 

Its not seeming so bad after all

sounds not bad for them  £1000 for a couple hours of welding .LOL.

but thats maybe the going rate for on site welding  there 

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I think its quite cheeky

 

I'm going back to the builder to find out breakdown

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I’m imagining your situation, you’ve got all the pricing done then out of the blue this crops up, be prepared for a lot of this, we thought since we were on our third build that we had it all covered, wrong! There’s always something or someone trying to grab more of your cash😩

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4 hours ago, jamiehamy said:

[...]

I would suggest £700 on a really bad day.

[...]

 

Referring to SPONS and local price experience ( NW UK) 

10 - nearly 11. meters of 10mm steel,  203mm wide  =  £300 delivered 

Site welder £300 - check the quality of the work.

Material handler (worst case ) £100

 

@jamiehamy : bang on - on as usual.

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7 hours ago, Kim said:

 

Hi all. 

My builder gave me this quote today and i had no idea it was coming. If you're in the industry could you take a look and see if this sounds right?

 

Two steel plates are required to be added to the top of the steel frames.

They will be welded on site. 

Reason:
This is to carry and support the wall above. 

The wall is 325mm wide and the steel is only 203mm wide and that is why it is necessary to have the steel plates welded to the top.

2 No steel plates @ 325mm x 10mm x 5.3m 
Welder required on site to weld the plates to the steel

Supply and installation

Total £1,495.00

 

Thanks so much for any help given

x

 

I would not be asking about the price but why this has come about first of all - has someone put the steels in the wrong place, can you show us a photo of the steels in place as they currently are. The wall is 325mm wide - OK what is it made up of, what does it do, why does it need to be 325mm wide etc. etc. are all things I would want to know.

 

I can get you a quote for the 2 pieces of plate easily enough if that helps you. As for the welding it depends what is required - it may not need welded, in fact I would probably prefer it was bolted if being done on site which changes things again... 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Kim said:

sorry should of said..

 

this is an internal picture frame at the back of the house before a single storey pitched extension on the back.

 

This is for two houses as well.

 

This was missed by building regs 😞 and only included the plating for the external walls. 

 

The walls are 325 and the steel columns 203/203/60

Is it a cavity wall? Why are there not two steels one each supporting one side of the wall? I am sitting in my office just now and my structural engineer is 6 feet from me. He is laughing - sorry... I suggested and he has confirmed: In this situation it would be more common to have two steels, sitting at the required spacing to hold the wall and then put spacers pieces in-between which could be as simple as some M20 threaded rod and nuts either side of each I beam or RBS with some flanges welded to each end and drilled for bolts. The welding on site can also create issues with the strength of the plate as the weld will be right along the stress point of the plate - bolt it. 

 

Alternatively re-spec the I beams as wide flange and get a flange that suits the size. 

Edited by Carrerahill

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11 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

it may not need welded, in fact I would probably prefer it was bolted if being done on site which changes things again... 

already suggested that -

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5 hours ago, Kim said:

yes

 

space consulting structural engineers

 

Just had another quote for £1300 as the welding is two guys welding whilst steels in position on site and the plates are £150 each

 

Its not seeming so bad after all

 

It’s still wrong ...

 

as @Carrerahill says, this should be two steels, one for each leaf as I said earlier. 

 

SE needs to sign off but I would not top load a flange like that, it’s asking for trouble. 

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5 hours ago, Kim said:

cavity walls 

the steels went up today by my builders

My architect designed everything and building regs missed this (got the right steel though) he even remembered the steel plates required for the extension picture frame but not the internal ones on both house 

 

Out of a matter of interest, why did Building Control screw up? Whoever detailed, or possibly didn't, this aspect of the build screwed up - BC are only there to ensure they are happy with details and designs and that contractors build appropriately to those details and designs. Whoever was responsible for the structural design and detailing of this structural aspect, i.e. your architects SE, or independently appointed SE - remember architects just draw pretty pictures, engineers make buildings possible - or your architect forgot to bring this to the SE's attention. 

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