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Basic heater Q's..


zoothorn

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Hi chaps,

 

just back from my old folks house, fat old 'leccy storage heaters. I cannot (nor can they/ no clue whatsoever) understand them. Tbh nor trv's (so far as if a valve head is slightly working 'wrong' there's no indication if faulty or just you just haven't set them right, or so sensitive that setting isn't feasable.. so you have no idea if a rad is working as it should).. nor my one 'modern' 'leccy slim Economy-Radiator Co I have here either! (so stupidly complicated its small screen is, & online info is, with so many permeatations I cannot make it work -other- than via the plug/on/ & at flat out for so long as is needed regardless of what the heck the screen's telling me).

 

Back to my folks storage heaters. The principle I understand, they store > unload. Ok so we're cold a'noon & I see its plugged in the wall (visible lead/ switched on) & on it a panel opens with 2 dials, boost/ heat. Spiel says keep boost on 1 for normal/ ok let's forget that. So one dial for heat 1-5. Simple? er no, the polar opposite seemingly for muggins here. I cannot get it to work not 1, to 5. So we're all left cold. Then I notice at midnight.. its on full pelt. Eh? what's more I come down today at 5AM.. the thing's still on full & the room's warm (1st time over xmas.. room finally warm at exactly when everyone's in bed not that they've ever likely established this, let alone why).

 

If there was some sort of time dial, fine/ I could see why on midnight-5am > 'storing' rest of the time.. & probably able to set it to store @ night > on PM/ ev. But no. Nothing its plugged into, or on the unit to signify when/ time etc. There cannot be a 'brain'/ central command NORAD (clever) centre in airing cupboard as sendng info via mains wires would be magic. Wouldn't it?

 

Can anyone help?

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The basics  Economy 7 (off peak) comes on from about midnight to about 7AM.  During that time only, the heater charges up with heat and teh temperature it charges to is set by the left hand "input" control.

 

So first thing in the morning it will always be very hot as it has just charged up,

 

Throughout the day it releases the stored heat into the room.  If you need more heat in the evening, then turn up the right hand boost control, that opens a flap to allow heat out quicker.  Don't open that too early in the day or you will run out of heat by the evening.

 

No they are not a very good source of heat, not one I would have by choice now. They are what they are though.

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Hi Pro Dave. Ok I understand a bit from this, but not majority still. There was no 'input' control.

 

LHS dial 1-5 'boost' (says on the flap normal operation set it to 1). RHS dial I'm not sure what it was called, but surely must be 'heat' if its a similar dial with 1-5 on.

 

And altho I can get a gist of 'charging at midnight - 7 am' the main Q of why it was flat-out hot between (or certainly both at start & end of) these times still totally baffles me. I mean can this be working 'correctly' as it is leaving us cold in the afternoon & on at night? presumably, surely not..

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Make and model of the heater or a picture please?

 

The vast majority, the left hand dial is input so perhaps this is the first one I have seen the other way around.

 

Does this heater have TWO input cables?  sometimes there is a convector heater strapped to the front, do you have one of those that is your "boost"?

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Ah, alas no pics or model. Im just back from their house you see (& way colder! my slim leccy rad flat out for 2hrs, just 3m away.. yet I'm in hat shivvering with cold. urgh). I can only recall fairly fat typical 80's looking cream colour rads, with brown top vent & control areas. But I don't think anything strapped to the front. Sorry!

 

The same rad upstairs in my (their) bedroom2.. was nr perfect, on low in evening & thru night too it seemed = just nicely warm room, & constantly (so it seemed to me too). I can rarely if ever get any rad to do this whatever make or type they're usually on flat-out or stone cold.. but rarely if ever like this one in their bed2 @ 'just nicely warm'. A mystery.

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Change to E10 and then you'll be able to use offpeak rate between 1pm and 4pm to warm you again in the afternoon. 

 

Order of events, as is, on E7;

  • cold heater from previous days use
  • 00:00, Off peak kicks in and starts 'recharging' the heat bricks until 07:00
  • slight heat output as the heater heats, so the room should not be 'freezing', but that can be incrementally increased by setting the boost to 2 instead of 1 ( minimum ) 
  • you accept the fact that storage heaters are utter shite and wear a jumper all day
  • at 17:00-18:00 you select 3 or 4 on boost dial and release more heat into the room for the evening until the aforementioned box of shite runs out of stored heat
  • you freeze at night waiting for ABOS to reheat enough to start giving off incidental heat again from ~01:00

Or you use peak electricity to boost in the daytime. There should be an auxiliary switch at the side of the heater which is connected to the peak rate meter. When that's switche on you can get electricity ( heat ) whenever you want it, but use it at your peril as it'll cost ya! Oh, and forgetting to switch it off will be equally painful when you get your electricity bill. 

 

Or.....

you get E10 and enjoy the 1pm to 4pm on cheap rate e.g. No need to boost with the auxiliary switch and no use of peak juice. 

 

Poost a pic of your heater thing at yours as I've no clue what it is or how it works without something to go on ;) 

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5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

If you leave the boost on 5, the flap remains up so heat basically releases as it goes in hence the heat out during the heating period. 

 

 

Hi PeterW- I'm not on board here tho, as when I said flap I was referring to the cover for the 2 dials that pops open.. rather than any part of the heat mechanism; there was no obvious 'flap' in this respect. Twas just a (fat ~5" thick) rectangular rad, vented along top, 2 dials twds top right.

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Most have a little heater right under the boost flap mechanism that closes the boost flap during charging. For commercial use e.g heating an office, it is okay to leave the boost turned up as it does not matter if it has run out of heat by 5pm.

 

But I still wonder if you are reading the controls wrong? perhaps even labelled wrong to confuse you?  when you turn the boost control, if you peer through the vents you will see a mechanical flap opening and closing, this will confirm you are really turning the boost control. That is the one that should be kept turned down most of the time.

 

When you turn the input control, that is a mechanical thermostat, you should hear it go click at some point as you turn it.

 

Storage heaters can work well in some houses but they are best suited to reasonably well insulated houses. I had them in a 1930's house and that was so poorly insulated and so leaky, that on their own they were completely inadequate as anything other than background heat.

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1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Back to my folks storage heaters

 

Input (or Charge) - Allows electricity to flow into the radiator until a temperature corresponding to selected setting is reached. 1. - LOW Temp........6. HIGH Temp
 
Output (or Boost) - Opens a damper when store falls below temperature corresponding to setting. 1. – HIGH temp....... 6. – LOW temp
 
Assuming E7 type tariff and simple storage radiators.
 
You must alter the input control to import the correct amount of heat for to-morrow’s weather.
Weekly or seasonal changes are usually adequate, with it set to 1-2 in Sept/Oct & April/May and 5-6 in Jan/Feb.
The output Damper (usually a metal flap that you can see through the output grill) is designed to close at the start of a charge period – but do not depend on it – the output control
should be turned down to the minimum value before going to bed.
In the morning the radiator will be giving out heat in an uncontrolled manner – leave the output control minimised until heat required – turn till damper opening is heard/visible when required to release extra heat .
Alternatively the output control can be used as a crude timer – low numerical values open relatively early when contents relatively hot, high numerical values open relatively late when contents relatively cool.
N.B. The opening time for any given output setting  will vary for different input settings. (As the time taken for the contents to fall to a given temperature will vary with the temperature set by the Input control)
Edited by A_L
typos
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Thanks for the help chaps. It seems I just don't speak radiator. For eg "You must alter the input control to import the correct amount of heat for to-morrow’s weather." is incomprehensible to me. The idea of different settings for different times of the year.. I cannot possibly cope with understanding. Its 10 pages ahead.

 

What I want to do, is simply get the radiator on low-medium, in the evening. Nothing but that. What I don't want is for a warm room at 5AM, cold room at 5PM which is what its doing at present.

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30 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

You must alter the input control to import the correct amount of heat for to-morrow’s weather." is incomprehensible to me

If you went fishing for 4 hours and drank 1 cup of coffee an hour then you'd need 4 cups worth stored in the flask. 

If you need a lot of heat the following day you need to store the max amount of heat in the 7 hour window between 00:00 and 07:00 so you don't run out of stored heat. That's simple. "FOCUS!" :) 

Heat rises, so the the flap that were on about is not the flap on the controls. It's a full length metal flap at the underside of the heater that stops air getting in thus massively restricting convention heat flow ( hot air out ) eg keeping it stored in the heater until you actually want to let it out ( by opening the flap via the boost control ). Once you open the flap, cold air gets sucked in the bottom of the heater and gets heated by the bricks. That is where the hot air flow out of the top comes from. What comes out must be able to get in, so the wider your flaps open ( ? ) the more heat ( warm air flow ) you'll get out. The more you get out, the faster it'll run out of stored heat energy. 

 

Disclaimer Thats the most number of times I've used the word flaps without my alter ego Finbarr Saunders  making it onto the stage. 

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6 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

If you went fishing for 4 hours and drank 1 cup of coffee an hour then you'd need 4 cups worth stored in the flask. 

If you need a lot of heat the following day you need to store the max amount of heat in the 7 hour window between 00:00 and 07:00 so you don't run out of stored heat. That's simple. "FOCUS!" :) 

Heat rises, so the the flap that were on about is not the flap on the controls. It's a full length metal flap at the underside of the heater that stops air getting in thus massively restricting convention heat flow ( hot air out ) eg keeping it stored in the heater until you actually want to let it out ( by opening the flap via the boost control ). Once you open the flap, cold air gets sucked in the bottom of the heater and gets heated by the bricks. That is where the hot air flow out of the top comes from. What comes out must be able to get in, so the wider your flaps open ( ? ) the more heat ( warm air flow ) you'll get out. The more you get out, the faster it'll run out of stored heat energy. 

 

Disclaimer Thats the most number of times I've used the word flaps without my alter ego Finbarr Saunders  making it onto the stage. 

 

 

I'm sorry but this explains the internal engineering of such a heater. But it doesn't tell me how to turn it on.

 

Please can someone just tell me how to turn the radiator on?

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Just now, zoothorn said:

 

 

I'm sorry but this explains the internal engineering of such a heater. But it doesn't tell me how to turn it on.

 

Please can someone just tell me how to turn the radiator on?

I don't know how to make it simpler.

 

Leave the BOOST at minimum and only ever turn it up very late in the day.

 

Set the INPUT control according to the weather.  The colder the weather the higher the input control needs to be.

 

If it is running out of heat by early afternoon then the input control needs to be HIGHER.  Once you change it, nothing will alter immediately but hopefully it will be better tomorrow.

 

You do NEED to look at the weather forecast and set the input control to match what the weather will be TOMORROW.

 

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Erm.....by the auxiliary switch I kept mentioning? That'll bring it on on demand. Other than that it is already turned on, as the primary switch is turned on is it not? 

I think we're banging our heads against a brick wall without pics as if you're setup is not generic then we're pissing in the wind here :/ 

Also it's a convector heater not a radiator. ;) 

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@ProDave But this is the setting its at. The boost is left on 1 (the spiel in the metal drop down cover for the 2 dials says 'for normal operation set the boost to 1). The other dial, whatever it is & I assume it has to be heat level, is up say 4.

 

Ok with this setting, I get no heat from the unit until midnight, when it roars away.. seemingly until 5 AM. At 5 AM it shuts off to nothing.

 

All day, from breakfast time to midnight, with this setting not touched or faffed with, its cold. The room is cold.

 

Before this, say 1AM to 4 AM, the room is warm.

 

The question remains,. how can I get a situation wherby the room is not warm at 4AM.. but 4PM instead?

Edited by zoothorn
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I can't be considering the weather tomorrow, yet, if I can't even get the damn thing to make heat at a normal time.

 

The ammount of heat/ getting the damn thing at 'optimal' setting' relative to today's or tomorrow's weather.. is a fathom away.

 

I don't care what ammount of heat comes out, just for now. I just want it to go on at all.. or.. if I can, at a normal time. Once I can achieve this -then- I can consider adjustment of the ammount of heat it produces. Surely.

 

At the moment its hot at night & cold in day. Is this correct then?

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5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I suspect the heater is faulty and the boost flap mechanism is stuck open.

 

You could either replace it or have a go at repairing it.

 

I don't know how I can establish if this is correct. Can I not just attempt to get it working, IE get the rad warm during the day 1st tho? Afaict that means a case of 'reversing' the time at which its going on.. from AM to PM. But with no time dial.. I can't see how.

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The only thing that "gets the rad warm" in the daytime is the fact it has spent a whole night heating up,  Inside it is filled with a load of high density bricks that are heated very hot and store that heat for the next day.

 

Yours does not seem to do that. One possibility is the boost flap is broken or stuck open, so the heat just passes through and the bricks barely get hot at all so go cold very quickly when the electricity goes off in the morning.

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10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

I don't know how I can establish if this is correct. Can I not just attempt to get it working, IE get the rad warm during the day 1st tho? Afaict that means a case of 'reversing' the time at which its going on.. from AM to PM. But with no time dial.. I can't see how.

Q1

Do you have two switches on the wall / skirting board ( next to the heater ) or one ?

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You can't "reverse the dial"  That is the whole point of off peak electricity. You get it cheaper at night to use for STORAGE heating.  The electricity supply company own the timer and set the times at which the cheap rate comes on.

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25 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Erm.....by the auxiliary switch I kept mentioning? That'll bring it on on demand. Other than that it is already turned on, as the primary switch is turned on is it not? 

I think we're banging our heads against a brick wall without pics as if you're setup is not generic then we're pissing in the wind here :/ 

Also it's a convector heater not a radiator. ;) 

 

 

I tried to give a link to a pic.. scroll down/ twds rhs like the scruffy stewdent-grant one here https://www.northwestheatingsolutions.co.uk/landlordselectricheating/

 

Aux switch? blimey nothing I can see like this. The unit enters the wall, on which plate is a switch. I'll call it a rad just for here/ easier.

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