PeterW Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 They have misread both dimensions, including the ones that they added... I would go back with the actual dimension, the dimension between wall plates, and then the dimensions from the plans (both theirs and yours) What it will show is what they have supplied doesn't actually meet any of these and they need to re-supply... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Have you paid them?, if not just tell them you are not going to, as what they supplied is not what you ordered which makes them not fit for purpose . If you have paid them, tell them you either want them replaced with what you ordered or your money back and if that is not forthcoming you will take them to the small claims court. Simples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, PeterW said: What it will show is what they have supplied doesn't actually meet any of these and they need to re-supply... Yup. What they've supplied isn't consistent with any reasonable interpretation of the drawings (including the interpretation they've tried to squeeze past you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 The agreed drawings also say: Not exactly clear language, but is at least an admission that they were aware of the existence of wallplates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 13 minutes ago, JamieL said: [...] as your diagram above is perfectly clear. You have told them that the width of the room is 3646 (in block 1 for example) and they have decided to provide joists that are 3560. Which is obviously going to be too short. And they argue 3646 minus 2 lots of 50ml for the wall-plate is 3546. And that is the length of joist supplied. And each of those joists has a 50mm timmable end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 39 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said: And they argue 3646 minus 2 lots of 50ml for the wall-plate is 3546. And that is the length of joist supplied. And each of those joists has a 50mm timmable end. Why would they subtract the depth of the wallplate though? By definition, the joist ends have to rest on that! Ask them what they think the joists are supposed to rest on if not the wallplates. The fact that they got it right the first time around shows that they've just cocked it up. Can you kick it above the head of whoever you're talking to and get a manager involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 11 minutes ago, jack said: Why would they subtract the depth of the wallplate though? [...] I asked that: 'Thats what we do because people get brassed off having to trim the ends....' And I replied: "but I asked you to provide trimmable ends and so that argument doesn't hold water really does it?" 12 minutes ago, jack said: [...] Can you kick it above the head of whoever you're talking to and get a manager involved? Yes, once I have exhausted things at this level. It is really simple: should the 100mm (2 times 50mm wall-plates) be measured from the external datum - the wall, or the internal datum - the wall plates. Last time the measure was from the wall. This time from the internal wall-plate. How was I to know that? Here's the answer.... J001 on the schedule (RHS) shows the complete assembly (that includes the trimmable bits) as 3546. The walls are 3646 apart - deduct 100 for the 2 wall-plates and you get 3546. I'm losing the will to live here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) . Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 minute ago, the_r_sole said: [...] You are a self builder who seems to have given clear direction - the first time you got what you wanted and the second time, presumably with the same approach, you have ended up with joists which are too short - normal process doesn't come into it really. [...] Thats my point. The same approach and instruction resulted in two different outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) Don’t pixx about with the monkey, go straight to the organ grinder. Demand the managers Email address and send him all the info with a demand to send the proper joists as ordered ASAP As this is holding up work on site (hint at wanting compensation). Edited November 27, 2018 by joe90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Are these meant to be top hung - with the top chord resting on the wall plate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 Just now, Mr Punter said: Are these meant to be top hung - with the top chord resting on the wall plate? No, they are hanger-hung (to coin a phrase). Had they been top-chord hung, there'd be no argument. It'd have had to be 3646 + 100 (50 either side) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Wall plates can be anything from 38mm to 47mm, so why / how they deducted 100mm I am not sure. With regard to trimming, with ICF you are unlikely to get the walls dead straight, so to ask for a 50mm trimmable allowance either end seems fairly sensible. They messed up and will have to re-make. They may be able to modify some of the longer ones - that is up to them - but they need to get a wiggle on or it will hold up your job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: [...] but they need to get a wiggle on or it will hold up your job. Just a quick list for ya...... PP delay 6 months: permission given but ecologist forgot to tell me he had an email allowing us to start (another 2 months) GCN license conditions 6 months delay Contractor buggered off for 5 weeks without telling us: wall blew down 9 to 12 months delay contractor buggered off multiple times at least a month at a time steels contractor got the measurements wrong 2 months delay architect - induced delay 1 month (all came down to the difference between max. and min. - copy and paste error on BR submission) Like I say at the beginning of this thread: Can't take a joke? Don't start. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 11 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said: Just a quick list for ya...... PP delay 6 months: permission given but ecologist forgot to tell me he had an email allowing us to start (another 2 months) Communication GCN license conditions 6 months delay Bureaucracy Contractor buggered off for 5 weeks without telling us: wall blew down 9 to 12 months delay Communication / A**ehole contractor contractor buggered off multiple times at least a month at a time A**ehole contractor steels contractor got the measurements wrong 2 months delay Measuring / Specification error architect - induced delay 1 month (all came down to the difference between max. and min. - copy and paste error on BR submission) Measuring / Specification error Like I say at the beginning of this thread: Can't take a joke? Don't start. I think most on here will have had similar. I guess the current one with the joists is also "Measuring / Specification". The "Big Boy" contractors do all they can to make sure they don't carry the cost of any errors - in fact may of them make much of their profit from what they consider extras / prolongation costs etc. The poor self builder just has to take it on the chin it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 The question this time round is: In the light of the evidence presented, is it reasonable, yes or no, to argue the supplier should re-supply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 20 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said: The question this time round is: In the light of the evidence presented, is it reasonable, yes or no, to argue the supplier should re-supply? Reading through everything I'd say that there is no doubt at all the the supplier has screwed up and should replace all the joists ASAP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 hours ago, recoveringacademic said: To explain, I need to take you back to our flat roof joists ordered from the same company. I ordered the flat roof joists based on the widest part of the space to be covered. 1979mm. Those joists were also to be provided with trimmable ends. The joists arrived, I checked them and all is well. Each joist-end will need to be trimmed a bit in some cases, more in others. The trimmable end allowance is 70mm each side. The wall-plate is 47mm each side. More than enough to allow the joist top chord to sit happily on the wall-plate Ian is it the case that your previous order had the top chord designed on top of the wall plate and with this one it is designed to be flush with the face of the wall plate? If this is the case it may account for the 100mm anomaly (although I am unsure who is at fault). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 Yes. And neither am I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 29 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Reading through everything I'd say that there is no doubt at all the the supplier has screwed up and should replace all the joists ASAP. Thanks that's interesting. Encouraging. I'll try again tomorrow and see what happens. This game has a super steep learning curve doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Check the length of the other joists. Perhaps I'm wrong but it looks like they may have taken 100mm off the length of those even though some only have a wall plate one end? For example it looks like J003 goes from a wall to a beam? So they should be 2589mm less 50mm for one wall plate = 2539mm. They have them as 2489mm ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 It sounds like some apprentice was told to allow 50mm for the ends to be trimmed and took that to mean trim 50mm off each end :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbish Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 hours ago, joe90 said: Don’t pixx about with the monkey, go straight to the organ grinder. Demand the managers Email address and send him all the info with a demand to send the proper joists as ordered ASAP As this is holding up work on site (hint at wanting compensation). For every day this continues you are incurring consequential losses as a result of their error. I would say to the supplier that you are willing absorb the losses of the first 3 days but after that they are liable. You have (hypothetically) labour on site unable to progress who still need paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, willbish said: For every day this continues you are incurring consequential losses as a result of their error. I would say to the supplier that you are willing absorb the losses of the first 3 days but after that they are liable. You have (hypothetically) labour on site unable to progress who still need paying. I’d be very surprised if their contract didn’t stipulate no liquidated damages or liabilities - not unusual tbh now and supply contacts are usually very tight on this sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbish Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 I was recently supplied incorrect grade of steel reinforcement mesh for my slab. It was discovered by BCO during pre concrete inspection, after discussion with the SE the only sensible solution was to take it up (two layers with UFH pipes tied to the top) and replace with correct grade. After much back and forth with the supplier and some excellent advice from Citizens Advice, the correct mesh was delivered free of charge and £1k of credit put on my account for the consequential losses I suffered. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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