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Brexit ( sorry mentioned it )

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Tuned into the Brexit debate in Parliament a few times this week. Very disappointing to see so few MPs present (except first day when it was full).

 

It looks pretty clear parliament won't approve "The Deal" as it currently stands. Nor is there any chance of them voting for a "No Deal" Brexit.

 

Seems to be a lot of discussion outside the chamber from Labor MPs about trying for Norway+ deal which means joining EFTA or even staying in the customs union. However both options mean accepting free movement of people, EU regulations and continuing to pay the EU. All of which appear to be reasons some people voted to leave. Norway actually pays more per head than the UK does so our bill might even go up.

 

Given the direction parliament seems to be going would we actually be better off to remain? How is Norway+ better than remaining?

 

 

 

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I think a lot of people (possibly including MPs) are just thoroughly sick and tired of the whole tawdry process.  Our government has shown itself to be self-centred and detached from the views of the electorate, our negotiators seem to have cobbled together a compromise that upsets everyone and the media seem to be focussed on making out every snippet of Brexit related news to be massively important, even when they have got their facts hopelessly wrong.

 

Remaining just isn't an option, as there isn't a hope in hell that we'd be better off by doing so now.  The EU have already said we'd lose our rebate if we change our minds and decide to try and revoke the Article 50 notice, there's no cast-iron guarantee that we can even withdraw that notice, just a non-binding legal opinion, and anyway all 27 remaining states would have to collectively agree the terms under which we might be allowed to remain, even if they can agree that we can remain in the EU (and that's far from certain).  I think we can be assured that being allowed to change our minds would be far, far worse for our short to medium term economy than just leaving without a deal.

 

The longer this debacle carries on, the more convinced I become that leaving with no deal may well be the least worst option.

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Just now, JSHarris said:

The longer this debacle carries on, the more convinced I become that leaving with no deal may well be the least worst option.

 

I agree to an extent, although there's an argument that withdrawing Art. 50 should put us back where we started.

 

That said, I doubt we'll get that even if the law is on our side and we go through what will certainly be a long and protracted fight. I don't trust the CJEU's competence as far as I can throw it, assuming its decisions in other areas are as bad as those in my own professional area.

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19 minutes ago, Alphonsox said:

 

I did.  Carefully.  Try checking yours.

 

Read what the AG actually wrote, not what the pro-remain media have reported, twisting things to seem as if opinion = fact.

 

Nothing said so far is in any way legally binding.  It is exactly as I wrote, only a non-binding opinion.  Unless the EU, in the form of the CJEU, is required to pass judgement on the issue of the UK being able to withdraw its Article 50 notice, without any penalty at all, then all we have is speculation, not hard facts.  What's more, all the remaining 27 states would be required to unanimously agree on the conditions under which we were allowed to remain - the UK would have little or no influence on those conditions.

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Think the judgement is due on Monday I believe...not sure of all the means to get this into court but it was progressed through the Scottish legal system as the litigants view was it was more progressive (or fair) than the alternative.

Remember all those celebrities who got gagging orders at the Old Bailey and thought they were safe from exposure...Ryan Giggs found out when the Sunday Herald plastered his face on its  front page just to show we have our own judiciary and legal system up here and English courts have no jurisdiction in Scotland....it's complex in Britain as we have no actual Constitution.

London lawyers were slow to react...hope Ryan got some money back

 

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The EUCJ will rule on Monday, until then feel free to keep spouting the usual UKIP tripe.

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I just want it to be over. Whatever way it goes; deal, no deal, remain, people's vote, painting the sky pink, I just want it done so that we can move on. This isn't what people who voted leave voted for I'm pretty sure and this is the issue with such a binary choice. 

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1 hour ago, Alphonsox said:

The EUCJ will rule on Monday, until then feel free to keep spouting the usual UKIP tripe.

 

 

Check your facts, again.

 

I have never been a member of, voted for, or expressed any view, ever, that aligns with the policies of UKIP.  In fact I have been disparaging of their policies on several occasions, and consider them to be one (fine) step removed from the extreme nationalists, like the EDL.

 

Why choose to be offensive, by stating that I support an abhorrent nationalist political organisation?  I've not attacked you in any way, have I?

 

1 hour ago, Tennentslager said:

Think the judgement is due on Monday I believe...not sure of all the means to get this into court but it was progressed through the Scottish legal system as the litigants view was it was more progressive (or fair) than the alternative.

Remember all those celebrities who got gagging orders at the Old Bailey and thought they were safe from exposure...Ryan Giggs found out when the Sunday Herald plastered his face on its  front page just to show we have our own judiciary and legal system up here and English courts have no jurisdiction in Scotland....it's complex in Britain as we have no actual Constitution.

London lawyers were slow to react...hope Ryan got some money back

 

 

The judgement due on Monday is only on the case presented by the Scottish Parliament, and is specific to clarifying the legal opinion given by the AG.  It would not form a legally binding judgement, just a clarification of the meaning of the Lisbon Treaty.

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And this thread is now descending to the depths which I thought there was a no politics rule in place to avoid 🤔

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6 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Why choose to be offensive, by stating that I support an abhorrent nationalist political organisation.

 

 

I have no idea what abhorrent political organisations you choose to support - that’s your business and I have not stated otherwise. 

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Steady folk/s...this is not the level of comment I've seen on here. Keep it clean now, it's not pretty and we can do nasty stuff all over the web. Let's not do it here.

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On 01/12/2018 at 09:19, Onoff said:

The Chinese have their own GPS:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45471959

 

Interesting how Chinese brand phones like Xiaomi & Huawei are already Beidou compatible. Given the influx of these phones into the UK I reckon there's back doors into all of these devices. New Zealand have just banned Huwawei kit being used in its 5G network.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/politics/article-majority-of-five-eyes-intelligence-alliance-bans-huawei-equipment/

 

The UK (& Canada) need to wise up and do the same.

 

Told ya!

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/2018/dec/05/bt-removing-huawei-equipment-from-parts-of-4g-network

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Rather than tempers getting frayed, I've locked this thread from further comment. It would be my intention to unlock it tomorrow once everyone has taken a deep breath and relaxed. 

 

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Okay folks, I'm unlocking this thread for further comment. 

 

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone this is a self build and renovation community, the key word being community.  We all have different views and experiences (which inform our view / position on this topic) but if we don't respect each other's views and opinions (even though we may disagree strongly with them), we won't have a community. 

 

Debate and discussion by all means, but we are not here to rerun the referendum campaign or descend to the level of (some of) our elected representatives.  

 

 

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A very interesting read indeed and one that reflects my broad understanding of the whole situation..

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The biggest problem we have seems to be an absence of knowledge as to what the future holds, whatever the outcome of the debacle going on within Westminster at the moment, and some companies and organisations are making decisions without having any solid data available to support them.  The net consequence has to be negative for many, caught up in the political fiasco that is largely of our own government's making.  I thought I was a realist when it came to assessing the ability of government to screw things up, but the past few months have astounded me; they really can screw up to a far greater degree than even I thought possible.

 

The government made a series of misjudgements, and seems content to keep people and businesses poorly informed, so creating a perfect environment for rumours and manipulation by those with a particular axe to grind, or even those keen to use the current chaotic state as a tool to make profits from.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but had the government set as a priority it's key function, to govern the country and ensure stability, and dealt with negotiations as a secondary aim, subsidiary to the need to ensure domestic stability, I am sure that there would have been far less speculation and uncertainty as to what the future holds, which may well have alleviated some of the impact that individuals have had from this process.

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my view is very simple --

if you can,t get decent deal in 2 1/2 years --you never going to get one

i do not like being a slave which is what the EU +ECJ makes you

If we are not able to ever bring back capitol punishment --not matter what side of the argument to you are on 

and not even  allowed have such a debate --we are SLAVES

does anybody really think the EU are going to get any better -

OUT is the only sensible solution and accept short term  problems ,

 

did we really fight 2 world wars  to now be enslaved by the EU

 

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Nobody  believes any official prediction now at all.

 

It all started when DC warned us there would be an immediate recession and an emergency budget if we voted to leave.  There was neither.

 

And just about any prediction made by the BOE in the last 5 years is way off the mark of what actually happens.

 

So now nobody has the slightest bit of faith an any prediction made.

 

This sort of reinforces my belief that the economy does what it does mostly in spite of what the government does, rather than because of what the government does.

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13 hours ago, Alphonsox said:

The EUCJ will rule on Monday, until then feel free to keep spouting the usual UKIP tripe.

I fear you have a different axe to grind regarding NI

its about time both sides of the NI problem stopped acting like spoilt kids and learn to live with each other

it is pure blackmail to say that the "troubles" will start again if you dont, get your way .

NI is nothing to do with anything other than the poeple of NI 

sort it out

 

 

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I’m going to join @scottishjohn in trying to get this thread locked again ;) and ask something.

 

I cannot understand how there is a large body of the British public who are supposedly pro-EU  but domestically support a “Evil Tory Cuts/anti-austerity/save the NHS” agenda. How?

 

The EU is run by a bunch of fundamentalists whose actions would make Rees Mogg blush. So how can people be cheering them and jeering Mogg and his ilk?

 

The EU’s recent record is to align everyone with their, er, ‘sensible Northern European outlook’, whether that suits them or quite clearly in many cases not. They make Thatcher look like Mother Teresa.

 

HTF?

Edited by daiking
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21 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

I thought I was a realist when it came to assessing the ability of government to screw things up, but the past few months have astounded me; they really can screw up to a far greater degree than even I thought possible.

 

 

I thought this is why we had a Head of State i.e. someone with the power to wade into an extreme situation knock politician heads together and appoint a Government of National Unity by decree.

 

I am disappointed that none in the media have dared to whisper "erm excuse me Your Majesty, what do you think we pay you for?".

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13 hours ago, Onoff said:

I am a luddite 

I have an old samsung builder phone ,which i use when i,m away from base --no apps ,no internet no nothing

no internet banking -none of that rubbish --

no need what so ever 

just makes your life more complicated+ with all the problems with stressed kids etc--all can be laid at social media  doorstep 

fir mobile phone jammers to all prisions and schools -

I was very unpopular with my staff ,when i had some  telling them no usage of mobiles in working hours with out permission 

god knows how much time is wasted in industry with these things.

and the more everyone easily follows what banks etc want --the less real banks and shops there will be 

 

 

 

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I worked in an environment where all personal mobile 'phones had to be left in lockers outside the secure areas.  Even our official Blackberries were locked down so tightly that they could only be used for official business, and even then they had to be turned off on site.  We had mobile 'phone detectors around the place that if they detected the transmissions from a 'phone would sound an alert demanding that the 'phone be turned off.

 

My current 'phone is a voice and text only Nokia that get's used less than once a month, at a guess.

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