zoothorn Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Thanks for your explanation- I'll go over it & try to understand over the wknd. What I cannot get, is how a dial called 'input' is helpful for, say an oap. They couldn't understand, or be expected to understand what you describe above. They want -& should have on their heater, whatever sort- a dial which says HEAT 1-10. If instead, they (or me- I still don't understand) have a dial saying 'input'.. they don't know what to do with it, no idea, apart from told 'just forget it & set it midway'. So, it might not be ther accurate description of the dial's actual function.. but could it have a "working title" of HEAT 1-10?? or is this just a no-no-no way of trying to decipher it? if not, I'm almost to the point of giving up trying to understand what its for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 I don't know what an OAP is. My Mother is 90, she would understand it. She understood the mathematics of some multi-directional arithmetic I was doing a while back. A work mate of mine is 35, he don't, nor does his wife. So not an age thing, more a case of not having it explained correctly. There is less terminology than characters in a Soap Opera, or players in a soccer team, less to learn than in the Foxtrot. There are a few OAPs on this site, not counting myself in that group yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Well horses for courses yes, but its not about not having it explained correctly either: you explain it, but still I don't know why the design of this has no HEAT 1-10 dial, but an 'input' dial (seemingly instead but still I dont know if to replace the heat output dial.. one of them has to be or you cannot control the heat coming out) which you need to wade through a ton of technical info to understand what its for. That is plain & simple bad design. Any heater should have a heater dial min to max, or 1-10. If not then its crap- simple as that. Every other heater does. Its like a car having no fkn steering wheel, or a racehorse with no legs. Imagine sitting on a horse, then finding out its got no legs on. or its legs come out sideways I dont fkn know.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Storage heaters have always been very much a compromise and very much understood by users. The simplest way to use them is keep the boost (output) knob at it's lowest setting and just use the "input" control to adjust to the heating demand. The big problem I found with them when I had them, was you need to keep an eye on the weather forecast and if it is going to get cold, turn them up the night before. the 1 day lag catches people out when it suddenly gets cold, or if it suddenly gets hot and you find yourself overheating because you did not turn them down. Treat the boost knob as just that, a means to squeeze a little more heat out at the end of the day of you are getting a bit chilly. I had one that claimed to automatically set the input, but in practice found that no better than the basic versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 4 hours ago, zoothorn said: Its like a car having no fkn steering wheel, ICE cars have a gas peddle and gearbox. So think of it as the input being like the gearbox, it limits the maximum speed. The gas peddle finely controls the speed for any given ratio. So that is your output. Higher gear, little throttle, you go further, low gear, heavy foot, you don't go far. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Ok guys thanks so much for explaining, I really do need pg1 car analogies to understand these two dials. But honestly if I can't get my head around them, I've little faith my folks or most elderly (oap) folks can. Afaict if I want simply say no. "4" heat (on a std dial) I have to guage, from experience alone, what this might equate to on the "input" dial, but in advance of when I want it to happen. Then I have another dial which expends the reserve Ive set by the input dial rapidly (so how do I ever know how much reserve is left?). Nope still not getting it- if its mine its unplugged & thrown out the window! I just cannot understand them.. I just hope my folks can (maybe it'll click with them now, & you've helped them out, if not me). For heavens sake tho designers why not just put a "Heat 1-10" on?! Much appreciated. zoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 hour ago, zoothorn said: For heavens sake tho designers why not just put a "Heat 1-10" on?! because it's not heat, it's quantity of stored energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 49 minutes ago, dpmiller said: because it's not heat, it's quantity of stored energy. This I do understand/ that's helpful, nice & clear dpmiller. but my point is why can't designers have the user in mind as priority, not themselves: if so they call this dial something else practical/ useful but not 'input' which even now still means nothing to me. 'Stored energy' might be a start, but even with a said min to max dial, I still have no direct indication of the ammount of heat that'll come out. All I want, is to know how much heat comes out, of any heater. Its SO page 1. If I buy a car, bang in front of me is how flippin fast its going: I dont expect to have to find this out, by instead having to work out xyz, bc it hasn't got a speedometer. That's abysmal design. Just tell me how fkn fast already! = tell me the heat output! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Heat output and storage capacity varies by model. Have you got the model number for the heaters..?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 9 hours ago, dpmiller said: because it's not heat, it's quantity of stored energy. Except Heat is the old term for Energy. Why we use terms like kWhh and kWhe 7 hours ago, zoothorn said: 'Stored energy' might be a start Could stick a thermometer in one, or an energy meter. I can see what you are getting at, I had a car that had a broken fuel gauge once. I found that out when I ran out of fuel. I think this is why the newer storage heaters have more sophisticated controls, they make it easier to understand what is happening. This is really historic and came about in the 1950's and 60's, a time before microprocessors. There was also an idea that the countries nuclear power stations would deliver electricity that was 'to cheap to meter'. Life don't turn out like we imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 I'm 100% sure the new types would have better dials, if not only better labelled. I just hope to goodness my elderly folks, & others too, can operate new types right with better labelled dials.. that's my concern. kWhrs.. I just don't understand (without a level of heat ie how hot &/or without also a unit of size, I can't see how its a useful unit of measurement) & so nor my folks would & most people too(?).. nor surely should be expected to I think, in order to use the heater with confidence. Anyway appreciate the replies- better sign this thread off as you've done your best, as I feel I have too to try to understand. I must be just thick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, zoothorn said: kWhrs.. I just don't understand The kWh is a unit of energy that us used to buy energy in. It is what the numbers on an electric meter are. Look at your electric bill and you will see kWh Think of it as the number of gallons (even though we pay for it in litres) your fuel tank holds. Lots of gallons go further (the input knob turned to full). Edited June 24, 2019 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatboy Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 3 hours ago, zoothorn said: I'm 100% sure the new types would have better dials, if not only better labelled. I just hope to goodness my elderly folks, & others too, can operate new types right with better labelled dials.. that's my concern They do. I have Dimplex Quantum heaters, and they have a dial to set the desired room temperature, and the heater takes care of the rest. There is a menu system where other things can be set, but it's more of a one-time thing - only thing I changed was the default 'let the house cool during work hours' to 'home all day', which was easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, phatboy said: They do. I have Dimplex Quantum heaters, and they have a dial to set the desired room temperature, and the heater takes care of the rest. There is a menu system where other things can be set, but it's more of a one-time thing - only thing I changed was the default 'let the house cool during work hours' to 'home all day', which was easy. I have looked at those and am very skeptical. My suspicion is they will use a lot of real time peak rate heat to power their convector heater element to achieve the comfort level they do. I would be interested to hear real world experience of how much off peak electricity they really use and how much peak rate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatboy Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 1 minute ago, ProDave said: I have looked at those and am very skeptical. My suspicion is they will use a lot of real time peak rate heat to power their convector heater element to achieve the comfort level they do. I would be interested to hear real world experience of how much off peak electricity they really use and how much peak rate? Well I'm on a different tariff, which gives 4 hours of cheap heating overnight, 2 hours during the day and 2 more in the evening. I believe it's similar to 'Economy 10' on the mainland. As I recall, the peak element will only come on once the heater decides it's more than 50% depleted and has fallen 2 degrees below the desired room temperature. The heaters are however VERY well insulated, and are never hot to touch, barely even warm in fact. There is considerably more insulation than older heaters I've had. On Economy 7, certainly down in the warmer area I am, I don't think the peak element would ever need to come on as the retain heat so well. I've had them in for 3 winters now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, phatboy said: Well I'm on a different tariff, which gives 4 hours of cheap heating overnight, 2 hours during the day and 2 more in the evening. I believe it's similar to 'Economy 10' on the mainland. As I recall, the peak element will only come on once the heater decides it's more than 50% depleted and has fallen 2 degrees below the desired room temperature. The heaters are however VERY well insulated, and are never hot to touch, barely even warm in fact. There is considerably more insulation than older heaters I've had. On Economy 7, certainly down in the warmer area I am, I don't think the peak element would ever need to come on as the retain heat so well. I've had them in for 3 winters now. Do not want to cause trouble (this time) but that only makes 8 hours, not 10. Presumably it is actually 10 real hours such as 3 4 3 or 3 5 2 or something? Edited June 24, 2019 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatboy Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 19 minutes ago, Ferdinand said: Do not want to cause trouble (this time) but that only makes 8 hours, not 10. Presumably it is actually 10 real hours such as 3 4 3 or 3 5 2 or something? No, it is 8 hours. Just from what I understand, in mainland UK, you get 'Economy 10' which offers the same service (3 periods of cheap power per day), but with a different number of hours. This is the actual tariff, but I was trying not to overly complicate https://www.jec.co.uk/your-home/our-tariffs-and-rates/comfort-heat/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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