Help with kitchen renovation/ 1st house.

[PeterW]

I wouldn’t mess with the brown stuff if it’s covering the whole of the ceiling below - to do it properly with PIR you would need to take it all out then put it back and you wouldn’t want to do that !!

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

This is what I thought myself. pir'ing it instead is a job too far logistically, even if it would be better.

 

Ok so back to me 'ole. A 3x2 frame, wedged +foamed  in 12". Then whack 10x my 1" pir's in, leaving gaps at edges to foam.. stuck together one by one with soudal foam. Face the front with pB? & a pB layer in the frame for pir to push onto maybe too? I guess it doesn't need to look pretty, just solely functional..

 

cheers- zoot

[Onoff]

14 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

Haha! oh no Im not laughing cos its died..

 

So you mentioned 160mm pir (instead of my new brown thick wadding, yes?) is that because joists are a bit longer as a std building rule?  160mm is just over 6", which is what I thought joists are, no? or maybe joists are also 160mm & just termed "6 inch" ?

 

As you see I'm weighing up if I could, conceivably do this before blocking me' ole with pir/ 3x2 frame/ foam etc. One thing to add there- Mickey seems very much to like munching expandi foam tho. the little prick. Is pir on his menu too?

 

The 160mm is just my recollection of how much pir is equivalent to the Building Regs minimum I think, of 270mm of the fluffy, roll type stuff. As I say I've put pir in between the ceiling joists of the bathroom. 

 

The fluffy roll stuff is usually laid first between the joists then at right angles across them. Going over the joists has some benefits in mitigating any cold bridge effect through the joists themselves. I went pir purely for "aesthetics" and future works ease of access, keeping it tidy up above the ceiling. 

 

With hindsight I'd have likely concentrated on insulating the roof joists above the loft to bring the loft and in turn the bathroom ceiling within a thermal envelope. However...as I want,  (PP permitting, unlikely to be granted I think) to change the hip roof ends to gables it seemed a lot of work to insulate the hip roof ends if they're one day coming off.

[zoothorn]

I think its a step far for me to consider Onoff. i could come back to it, in a few years, in theory.

 

Ive opened a can of worms 1st tho. The castle walls L&R (& above prolly but I'm not daring to poke here) have alot of soft rotten mortar, going in quite a few inches in places too. I was poking about with intent to re-point (prior to doing the frame > pir inserts) as the outer white was just flaking/ coming away.. & its now a really substantial lot of rotten soft/ damp mortar, enough Im worried to poke further.  What to do?

 

The sill of the castle window is a decent concrete cap, & a lintel with some useful old 3x2 on facing it, so I intend to continue this down L&R & across the concrete to form my frame. Pipes & wires do interrupt tho.

[zoothorn]

[zoothorn]

And this is the house's main issue. 4+" gap/ voids between plasterboards > & walls (huge draught in here/ cold loft air down > cocoons upstairs rooms/ landing, & right down to the main room ceiling so in places one skin of pB separates this cold air 'blanket' to main room.. above fire too).

 

The way its done: pB attatched to 3x2 frames, which stand-off from inner walls by 1+" wedges. Not a jot of insulation.

 

The pic shows the castle wall again, side.. with the 1+" gap (with one stand-off in/ wedge), the pB towards LHS onto the 3x2 (forget the pine timber far LHS, its me 'ole door monstrosity sides).

 

THIS is main reason why I'm so cold in the main part of house.

[Onoff]

Lime mortar is that maybe???

[zoothorn]

Yup looks so. Fine if just an inch / pick out/ repoint.. but most of face is like so, & alot going in a good 2" inches. makes me nervous its all gonna cave in!

 

(95% of the upstairs walls, onto which the pb/ 3x2 + wedge things all attatch, is thankfully -not- old castle like this, but brick albeit 2 cr*p courses: Ive old walls, on the upper floor, only on the 2 ends of the house 'shell' going up like triangles: chimney stack end, & this opposite end where this old window was. Then brick joins onto these, & around the sides forming the 1st floor walls

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

And this is the house's main issue. 4+" gap/ voids between plasterboards > & walls (huge draught in here/ cold loft air down > cocoons upstairs rooms/ landing, & right down to the main room ceiling so in places one skin of pB separates this cold air 'blanket' to main room.. above fire too).

 

The way its done: pB attatched to 3x2 frames, which stand-off from inner walls by 1+" wedges. Not a jot of insulation.

 

The pic shows the castle wall again, side.. with the 1+" gap (with one stand-off in/ wedge), the pB towards LHS onto the 3x2 (forget the pine timber far LHS, its me 'ole door monstrosity sides).

 

THIS is main reason why I'm so cold in the main part of house.

 

That can be sorted with removing the plasterboard and using rockwool to insulate it and then adding a VCL over the top. Rockwool is much better in this type of situation as it forms to the walls behind and stops drafts coming up the walls. Can be done a panel at a time. 

 

What radiators upstairs and where do the 3 copper pipes go..??

 

 

[zoothorn]

Rads- thats easy.. none! pipes go in me 'ole > across small loft > down for my kitchen & bathroom H+C water.

 

rockwool- that's an interesting suggestion. I was under impression the whole shebang needs pulling out, 3x2 fix to walls / 3" pir / new pB. I only have a small area of old wall like ^ these crumbles.

[PeterW]

Use proper Rockwool Batts - 95mm would fill the 3x2 and the gap by the sounds of it and it’s breathable. 

 

VCL will stop your draughts if it is sealed properly. 

 

Any boiler at all in the property ..?

[zoothorn]

But the tricky thing is these stand-off 'wedges' the whole 3x2 frame is shifted out with.. annoying gaps behind the frame, everywhere. Plus I lose this 2" of the stand-offs off the room. The chimney end.. the 3x2 frame stands off by about 12" at the top, cos the old wall here tilts out.

 

Is rockwool comparable with pir in terms of insulation properties?

[PeterW]

You can stuff Rockwool behind the studs. It’s not as efficient as PIR but is more effective in this sort of situation. 

 

And do you really mean 12” ..??!!

[zoothorn]

I understand the suggestion PeterW.. interesting ideas. Yes 12" if not 18" at the top.. the base of the pB its the 2" gap.. then old wall @ chimney thins out in a gradient: so as its 10' across, Ive a huge area of perrmanent cold air end my bed. Seriously- I have to sleep in thermals/ dressing gown/ wooly hat/ thick socks, & a hottiebottle under the thickest of duvets even on a night like this/ not so cold. You cant read a book its just too cold sitting up- you run the gauntlet from main room & hunker down. very unpleasant.

[Onoff]

I seem to recall suggesting a vcl like I did in the kitchen to stop draughts...was too involved or something. 

 

You can lead a horse etc!

[newhome]

Buy an electric blanket. Peanuts to run and much more pleasant in the conditions you note. You will wonder why you didn’t buy one before. 

[zoothorn]

I don't know whay a vcl is.. that's probably the reason! (visible c*ck line?)

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, newhome said:

Buy an electric blanket. Peanuts to run and much more pleasant in the conditions you note. You will wonder why you didn’t buy one before. 

Yes but I worry about peeing meself. & its all a bit some mothers do 'av em 70's isn't it?

[Onoff]

40 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I don't know whay a vcl is.. that's probably the reason! (visible c*ck line?)

 

Vapour control layer.

 

Go way, way back and I put up pics (discussed?) of a green plastic sheet that I put over my studs after filling between them with pir. I did the same on the underside of my ceiling joists. The pb then goes on sandwiching the vcl between it and the studs/face of the pir. Belt and braces against draughts slipping by poor fitting pir. 

 

 

[zoothorn]

Aha ok Onoff roughly on board.. but here my studs are 'raised' off the walls by these 2" thick wedges (I wonder if you can just see one in the dark gap.. looks like a square sponge stuffed between wall & stud). So the VCL will still have this 2" void behind it if put over the studs. Or are you thinking rip out all the studs/ negating the 2" gap. I guess the wedges are in due to uneven walls- a short cut taken to get job done as easily as possible I assume.

 

What do think of PeterW's rockwool idea (for this huge job- far off so I won't go too involved on here, for now).. instead of pir, leaving the studs in place?

[Ferdinand]

12 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I understand the suggestion PeterW.. interesting ideas. Yes 12" if not 18" at the top.. the base of the pB its the 2" gap.. then old wall @ chimney thins out in a gradient: so as its 10' across, Ive a huge area of perrmanent cold air end my bed. Seriously- I have to sleep in thermals/ dressing gown/ wooly hat/ thick socks, & a hottiebottle under the thickest of duvets even on a night like this/ not so cold. You cant read a book its just too cold sitting up- you run the gauntlet from main room & hunker down. very unpleasant.

 

 

(Not implying Scrooge btw, just the outfit.)

 

What about a blanket you switch off before you get into bed?

Edited November 29, 2018 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

Sounds like someone has squared off the old chimney for ease - can be done sloping and not difficult and would give you a better insulated space. 

 

Given all the issues you’ve got here I wouldn’t even consider PIR - it is not designed for this sort of wall or gaps, and you can’t just fill the gaps with expanding foam whatever anyone tells you..!! 

 

You’ve got doing taper boards down to a tee - same again here, take a boards width off at a time, clean the studs up and and fill with rockwool, plastic VCL stapled over the top and then board. You can then join the VCL on a stud for the next one - staple gun and a couple of folds is all you need. 

[Onoff]

58 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Sounds like someone has squared off the old chimney for ease - can be done sloping and not difficult and would give you a better insulated space. 

 

Given all the issues you’ve got here I wouldn’t even consider PIR - it is not designed for this sort of wall or gaps, and you can’t just fill the gaps with expanding foam whatever anyone tells you..!! 

 

You’ve got doing taper boards down to a tee - same again here, take a boards width off at a time, clean the studs up and and fill with rockwool, plastic VCL stapled over the top and then board. You can then join the VCL on a stud for the next one - staple gun and a couple of folds is all you need. 

 

Are you meaning Rockwool batts?

[zoothorn]

Ok many thanks PeterW. That's the job outlined then I think. Its to do far later- in the spring. Many, many tricky areas to manouevre around (hall/ staircase landing, a immersion tank area boxed off, a cupboard.. & big 'blank/ faux' wood wall areas build ontop of old walls below to navigate/ remodel). A huge job for me.

 

In the meantime I need to address this rotten mortar in me 'ole wall sides. Thankfully no damp smell, or only feintly, but what do I do here? On the LHS wall someone's tried to patch with mortar before, on lower section.. I assume gave up.

[PeterW]

Leave the mortar alone - it’s not an issue as it isn’t protecting the wall from external moisture and is probably due to cold / damp so fixing some of the insulation and air tightness would make it better.