Help with kitchen renovation/ 1st house.

[PeterW]

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

The air in the frame acts like insulation? but surely this only figures.. if there's no air/ vacuum like the windows.

 

Nope - think how bubble wrap works as insulation and you’re half way there.

 

There is very little space for a convection current to create in the frame and conduction through uPVC is poor so you will probably find the frame is a better insulator than the glazing unit. 

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Ok food for thought admittedly. It makes total sense. But as I said the floor is as bad as the walls (I can just -feel-/ sense there's no insulation under the lino).

 

Ok what does it involve, if I were to do one wall at a time, like the kitchen sink end-? I have the bare block painted white then lets say.

 

The air in the frame acts like insulation? but surely this only figures.. if there's no air/ vacuum like the windows.

 

Remember that heat travels by conduction, convection and radiation. So things other than vacuum help keep it in or out, and a thing called a u-value or an r-value will tell you how good each type of insulation is. The best stuff *is* vacuum panels, but they are a little costly .. and may be restricted to small areas for expensive items that are very hot inside, such as hit tech heat stores.

 

 Where space does not matter especially you might use solid polystyrene or rock wool like your loft (or other versions thereof), but for insulatng a small kitchen I used stuff called PIR [polyisocyanurate I think in technical], known as Kingspan or Celotex by brand.

 

PIR is about twice as good as polystyrene or rock wool in keeping heat in so you only lose about half as much space round your room for the same benefit. There are other considerations such as rock wool being cheap but a‘problem to work with itch-wise, and so on, but none of this is difficult.

 

And if you have questions we have clods like me and friendly boffins who use English who can explain things.

 

My first double glazing was 2 panes that slid individually. And eg secondary glazing works but does not have vacuum in it anyway. And the sealed unit stuff that is argon filled will have filled up with air after a few years anyway.

 

If you pop over to my Little Red House thread over at the ‘other place’ the Green Building Forum it has part of my experience from 2012-16 working on a house perhaps not dissimilar to yours. We took energy bills on a tiny solid walled detached cottage from £220 per month to about £100. External Wall Insulation was not in the end justifiable, so we did not do that. That included adding a 240sqft conservatory bought off eBay for £600.

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11560&page=1#Item_0

 

It is good to start with the basics. Back in 2013 I did a 9 month 2 nights a week general DIY course that did a bit of everything, just to fill in the gaps in my experience.

 

Hang on a bit and someone will point you to a dry-lining video. ? Probably the only power tools you need will be a cordless drill, and your arm.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Ferdinand

[zoothorn]

I don't have central heating. I have: a logburner for main bigroom, 1 tiny £5 fan heater in bedrooom, 1 'leccy wall heater in kitchen (ok but as room re. insulation so bad is next to useless, like putting it on in a huge fridge its gonna do next to nothing), 1 chrome wall heater in bathroom- the most hopeless thing: I barely even notice its ever on. I am freezing in this house like you wouldn't believe possible in 2018.

 

I cant get any heat to radiate to above rooms from logburner, ridiculously, bc theres so much cold walloping down stairway (due to upper room walls as Ive explained) its beats the heat back, & enters main room, so, I put a curtain across stairway- partially successful to stop cold getting in yes, but means any heat at all that was due to go 'upstairs' is now not possible = permanently freezing upper rooms.

 

One reason for doing the log cabin is that with wood walls it'll likely be warmer than any room in the house.

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

I don't have central heating. I have: a logburner for main bigroom, 1 tiny £5 fan heater in bedrooom, 1 'leccy wall heater in kitchen (ok but as room re. insulation so bad is next to useless, like putting it on in a huge fridge its gonna do next to nothing), 1 chrome wall heater in bathroom- the most hopeless thing: I barely even notice its ever on. I am freezing in this house like you wouldn't believe possible in 2018.

 

I cant get any heat to radiate to above rooms from logburner, ridiculously, bc theres so much cold walloping down stairway (due to upper room walls as Ive explained) its beats the heat back, & enters main room, so, I put a curtain across stairway- partially successful to stop cold getting in yes, but means any heat at all that was due to go 'upstairs' is now not possible = permanently freezing upper rooms.

 

One reason for doing the log cabin is that with wood walls it'll likely be warmer than any room in the house.

 

Do SIPs esque panels in your log cabin maybe?

[newhome]

I can't help you with your heating I'm afraid but I do know what it's like to have no heating upstairs as this house had none for quite a while until it got fixed in April. The best thing I ever bought was an electric blanket. I never needed to go to bed cold and stay cold for ages. Was certainly a lifesaver for me. They are cheap as chips these days and will cost so much less to run than your electric heater. 

 

 

[zoothorn]

Good advice newhome.. only reason Ive not bought one is they remind me of my parents in the 1970's &, of course, if one should wet oneself after a stiff tipple or two! they make me nervous. .no I really should do that you're right..

On 23/06/2018 at 19:48, Onoff said:

 

Do SIPs esque panels in your log cabin maybe?

 

Im going to do the floor & ceiling with celotex stuff/. Also thinking of upgraded 44mm for the walls (std 28).. but worried about the added weight; Im told with 2x glazing as well a 3x3m  44mm wall log cabin = up to 1.5 tons.

[zoothorn]

Can someone tell me how I can get notifications of a reply, in my email inbox?

 

thanks

[PeterW]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Can someone tell me how I can get notifications of a reply, in my email inbox?

 

thanks

 

Below the response box there is a “Notify me of replies” which if you switch it on you will get an email. 

[Dreadnaught]

22 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Can someone tell me how I can get notifications of a reply, in my email inbox?

 

 

And try this link for your personal email settings: https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/notifications/options/. 

[newhome]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

if one should wet oneself after a stiff tipple or two! they make me nervous

 

 

Well I have to say that has never crossed my mind and nor has it ever happened! 

 

Might I suggest that you invest in some of these . Free sample in the link 

 

https://www.tena.co.uk/men/products/free-sample?ppc=0&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpcLZBRCnARIsAMPBgF3iv8gKWStbqU_M793b751gvl_q6YrD84AEk6XTYP5GBjN90fW0D3MaAtt1EALw_wcB

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

I think one shall be wear a large mannappy with one's 'leccy blanket.

 

Now where was I.. kitchens yes.

 

Ive harranged Homebase to ruddy well pull their finger out & get 3 of the acacia wood tops into breacon store pdq > then post to me @ £20.

 

Great/ progress- 1st step! does mean I'm going to have to paint the damn doors etc tho... to much wood make me go crazy in the heat already. So Im think cream doors w' new handles/ wood tops/ cream-white tiles (those nice slightly reliefed 'brick-shape' ones) ~light green side walls/ racing green opposite ends.. all white-walls in house at mo. New hood/ redo lino.

[newhome]

Yep you are going to have to paint the doors with a wood worktop. Cream sounds good. Just do it with the right prep and paint. 

[zoothorn]

Ok so is joining these 26mm tops.. any different to the mitre/ parson's nose whatever it was.. ie as before?

[PeterW]

17 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Ok so is joining these 26mm tops.. any different to the mitre/ parson's nose whatever it was.. ie as before?

 

They aren't perfectly square ended (neither are most rooms though...) so just take a router to the end to square it up, lay them together and look what you've got to remove. If you have access to a biscuit jointer bit for the router then all good and just use that to create a couple of slots, glue and then plate from below with an offcut of ply screwed and glued to the bottom. Easier than bolts as they need a 20mm deep housing and that leaves the worktop quite thin.

[Ferdinand]

13 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I think one shall be wear a large mannappy with one's 'leccy blanket.

 

Now where was I.. kitchens yes.

 

Ive harranged Homebase to ruddy well pull their finger out & get 3 of the acacia wood tops into breacon store pdq > then post to me @ £20.

 

Great/ progress- 1st step! does mean I'm going to have to paint the damn doors etc tho... to much wood make me go crazy in the heat already. So Im think cream doors w' new handles/ wood tops/ cream-white tiles (those nice slightly reliefed 'brick-shape' ones) ~light green side walls/ racing green opposite ends.. all white-walls in house at mo. New hood/ redo lino.

 

When you are thinking about painting your doors, take a raincheck on whether your hinges are OK. Should be, but hinges now are much better than hinges from the 1980s as not they "click" off to let you remove the doors rather than having to flippity-flappity-flop around with lots of screws. if necessary they should be cheap to replace. They should be strong and stable without too much play.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Onoff]

You can sometimes find that years of adjusting mean that some cupboard door screws are loose and the door or carcass material had disintegrated around the screw. You'll need to carefully repair with something that'll take the screw again. I used some chopped fibreglass on one before. Not pretty but if you're painting...

[zoothorn]

On 25/06/2018 at 15:35, PeterW said:

 

They aren't perfectly square ended (neither are most rooms though...) so just take a router to the end to square it up, lay them together and look what you've got to remove. If you have access to a biscuit jointer bit for the router then all good and just use that to create a couple of slots, glue and then plate from below with an offcut of ply screwed and glued to the bottom. Easier than bolts as they need a 20mm deep housing and that leaves the worktop quite thin.

 

Thanks for replies chaps- took a few days off/ needed after my n'bor probs.

 

Back on board. Not perfectly square ended.. what the 60cm W  relative to the L.. or are you talking about the 26mm H relative to the top?

 

Good point about the shallow depth.. those "culdesac" rout shapes + those clamp things are just not right with 26mm tops, is that correct? Do you suggest a 45* join then, if, the mitre-join is n/a now?

 

Useful these Howdens catalogues.. Ive got a colour plan for both walls, tiles, & cupboard colours to go by from the glossy pics. Buying tap today, so I'm off to a start. Still cant decide on a sink.. need a big bowl same as old one now, but dims of bowl seem n/a.

 

Thanks alot- ZootHornRollo

[PeterW]

You can butt joint the worktops - just make sure it’s a clean join and use a couple of biscuits to reinforce it. The bolts are too deep and will cause issues to the structure of the work top. 

 

And its the 600/2200 that’s not perfectly square or finished. I had 6 and they were 2200 +/-6mm

[zoothorn]

Ok progress/ renovation underway: worktops here, knots all over I wasn't expecting.. but for £30 I can't complain- homebase VG to me too.

 

1) Ceiling paint stripped to bare plaster. I must now think about adding to the walls with 1" or so of insulation etc (before I strip walls/ a terrible state, a heck of alot of work to prep). Only 2 walls adjacent to exterior: sink wall, & laptop wall. The other 2 have two adjacent small rooms: behind. All 3 rooms within the simple square 80's single story extention, w'pitched roof (insulation added/ job done last year to loft above all).

 

I need info on the insulation/ wall addition job if you would chaps.. I'll weigh up if its in my skillset to attempt then. 

 

I guess it does mean taking out all the units these 2 wall sides?

 

Thanks, Zoot

[zoothorn]

Chaps- I'm thinking of doing a 'proper' job first: ie, add insulation to inside walls (2 walls to do only/ 2 adjacent to EXT).

 

Would you be kind enough to help me on this? I'm thinking 1", 2" will lessen INT size too much. These 2 walls in pic 1..

 

I've also got foam ceiling corner curve things as you can see.. should I rip out, or (as mostly firm) leave in place/ keep/ work around?

 

thanks.. zoot

 

 

[PeterW]

Rip the coving out - if the insulation is only 1” then make it Celotex and not EPS

[zoothorn]

Coving.. ok will rip out, but is it easy to fit new stuff? or what's your suggestion/ not replace at all?

 

What I don't know about Peter re the insulate job, is apart from 1" celotex (I know what this stuff is) is how it fixes onto plaster > then what goes on the face of it (assuming s'thing does to then tile or paint etc onto) > what do i do about the two sockets, & then the window areas..

 

Although I have no idea about this job whatsoever.. I am pretty sure I could do it fairly well.

 

Another Q: is the idea to remove these units to do the whole wall with insulation.. or to leave in situ/ insulate wall areas above & around only..

[ProDave]

Coving is a personal thing. For me it's yesterdays style.

 

Agree 1" Celotx / Kingspan etc then 9mm plasterboard to keep the walls thin.

 

You could take the worktop off and drop a lot more insulation down behind the kitchen units.

[newhome]

You are going to change the worktop anyway so take that off and as @ProDave says there should be a gap (service void) down the back of the units. 

[zoothorn]

Great! ok that's a plan.. hope I find this void fingers x'd. Right, so I need some more info on doing the kingspan + 9mm p'board job:

 

Is there any thread you know of, or link to someone perhaps doing a similar job? I get the principle, but in still practise not clear enough to start. I really need to gather the info today if I can on this idea > to maybe start this week.

 

For eg, how are both materials attatched to wall faces? what do I do re. the wall 'in' bits around windows? & going around the plug sockets:, or is it a Q of removing these & attatching to the new face 1" fwd? once done.. do I need to then get a plasterer in,  & before the new worktops on?