joe90 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I have been reading this with interest as I also bought my ASHP on Ebay “ as new” and it was still in its original wrapping on the original pallet so I am hoping mine works?. I paid £850 for mine so as Nick says above still worth the gamble ( I hope). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 Oh dear. As I feared this might get messy. This is the response I have had (edited to preserve anonimity) In order to confirm that below is the case, please return the unit to us at the following address. We will have an engineer test the unit for gas integrity and operation. Should any manufacturing defect be found then we will repair or replace the unit under warranty. When returning for test, please send the control unit, flow switch and sensors as these can then too be tested as part of the complete package sold. How would you respond to that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I would respond by telling them that they can collect it, as you are unable to ensure that it is suitably packaged for delivery, to their quality standards, and that you would not wish for anything that you may do in packing the unit for shipment to possibly cause damage in transit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Try this? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-to-refuse-paying-the-cost-of-returning-a-faulty-item Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 To be honest the issue is not who pays to return it, but should you return it? If I bought a boiler from say a builders merchant on line, and it did not work, they would not say "return it and we will fix it" they would appoint a representative of the manufacturer to come to my house and fix it. I actually did this in my last house when the oil boiler failed at 11 months old, and in that case the manufacturer sent a plumber, who diagnosed it as unrepairable, and they paid for a replacement boiler and the labour of the plumber to remove the faulty one and fit the replacement. It gets complicated that this is a re badged unit, but inside there is a model number of the actual manufacturer, so should I be contacting them? Looking for some case history how is the best way to proceed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 No case history but call their bluff and ask who to contact for an on site warranty repair and cite that it’s not practical to return this large heavy item that has just be installed in the same way that you could not be expected to return a boiler or a large appliance such as a washing machine post installation. If it were me I would take this opportunity to remind them of their obligations under the Sale of Goods Act 2015. You’ve played nicely so far so turn up the heat a little and be a bit more direct about their obligations. I wouldn’t go contacting anyone other than the supplier at this point but do get them to tell you who the warranty is with and the process for requesting an on site repair under that warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 I have done that in my reply to them. As a 2 pronged attack, I have also sent an email to the actual manufacturer asking them how I get a warranty service. In the end I don't care which one repairs it. What is starting to puzzle me, taking the boiler example as a comparison, is why the supplier does not just contact the manufacturer to ask for a service visit. That alone makes me wonder what else I do not know. I might contact the local trading standards to discuss it with them. If it went to court, I wonder if that would be a local court here under Scottish law, or a court local to the supplier under English law? I guess it was sold under English law? I might even start looking for someone to take this on as a no win no fee basis if it came to court action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Do you have a manual for it? If so what is the name of the manufacturer according to that, ie how is it badged? I don't think that it's up to you to have to ascertain who originally made the appliance. Surely the warranty is with whoever has rebadged the item, even if they choose to use engineers from the original manufacturer to repair and service the items? Is there any information in the manual that relates to how to make a call on the warranty? But ultimately none of that matters since all you care about is getting it working. I suspect that maybe the supplier no longer has a relationship with the original manufacturer, or maybe your remote location means that there are no service engineers in your area. I think trading standards would be a good place to start in terms of seeking advice. I wouldn't bother with a no win no fee solicitor as they will take a cut from monies you are awarded and a. I don't think your case is complex enough to warrant a solicitor, and b. I don't think it will get as far as court TBH. Before taking any official / court action I would email the CEO of the parent company / plc and raise a formal complaint. It's easy to find his email address here: https://ceoemail.com/ I would leave that one in reserve until you've progressed a bit further with the company you bought it from however. These things are a pain but they do have a way of working out ok in the end if you are persistent and structure your complaint well. Ultimately the law is on your side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 I know the name on the unit, but I am choosing not to post it here at the moment. I know the name of the supplier (which is not the same as the name it is badged) but again am choosing not to mention it. I can't find ANY reference to the "manufacturer" that badged it on the internet, other than the fact the supplier I bought if from used to sell that make. I know the manufacturer who's make and model number is on labels inside he unit, and who also used to sell an idenical looking unit under their own name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, newhome said: Before taking any official / court action I would email the CEO of the parent company / plc and raise a formal complaint. It's easy to find his email address here: https://ceoemail.com/ I would leave that one in reserve until you've progressed a bit further with the company you bought it from however. The CEO of which company are you referring? The supplier? The "company" that badged it, or the original manufacturer. Yes Trading standards will be my next contact if I get another unsatisfactory response from the supplier. Re the no win no fee thing, if it went to small claims court and won, the defendant would pay their costs. I think the main advantage of employing such a company, is a letter from a solicitor stating the matter might end in court is more likely to result in it getting settled before it goes that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, ProDave said: The CEO of which company are you referring? The supplier? The "company" that badged it, or the original manufacturer. Will PM you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Was there not something in the sellers Ts&Cs that you as the buyer had so long after delivery to verify the goods? I appreciate with something like an ashp you can't be expected to do that in 7 days or whatever. Or am I thinking that's to do with delivery damage when they say that? Don't reckon I'll have any comeback if my bath pump doesn't fire up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 No nothing like that. A very brief description in the listing, then a link to item details which gave the full specification including reference to the 7 years warranty. I have found several other references to the 7 year warranty on line and am storing all these away as evidence. Not that the 7 year warranty is important to this as it's all within 1 year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Onoff said: Was there not something in the sellers Ts&Cs that you as the buyer had so long after delivery to verify the goods? I appreciate with something like an ashp you can't be expected to do that in 7 days or whatever. Or am I thinking that's to do with delivery damage when they say that? If you see that anywhere it will likely be for visual delivery damage so that they can make a claim against the courier. They can’t state that in respect of whether something is faulty or you change your mind as these are all defined in the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Some suppliers do try to set their own terms but this goes against the terms of the act. How long this sort of thing takes to sort out is generally dependent on how customer focused a company is. The worst ones are an utter pain to deal with but persistence generally pays off if you are certain that the law is on your side and not trying to claim for something that broke for a reason not related to a manufacturing defect, so if you dropped the tele for example. Edited June 12, 2018 by newhome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Also remember that the “reasonable” clause in law applies. Is it reasonable to expect an RTB warranty on an item requiring significant work to remove it and reinstall it - usually by a competent or qualified person. Doubt what they are saying would pass that ..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 13 hours ago, ProDave said: I might even start looking for someone to take this on as a no win no fee basis if it came to court action. No-win no-fee only works where there are significant damages to be claimed. In your case, you're just looking for replacement/repair/refund, so if you're successful there're no funds from which a no-win no-fee lawyer could take their cut. 16 hours ago, ProDave said: It gets complicated that this is a re badged unit, but inside there is a model number of the actual manufacturer, so should I be contacting them? Not for warranty support, no. Responsibility for providing a warranty absolutely rests with the seller (even if they have to engage the manufacturer to do the warranty work). The wholesaler/rebadger and original manufacturer have no contract with you and are under no legal obligation to do anything about the situation. What you might do is call the technical department of the original manufacturer or the company that did the rebadging, and see whether they can help diagnose what's wrong. If they give you an answer along the lines of what you've had above, you have a much stronger case to go back to the seller with. I don't know how typical it is, but we have a Panasonic ASHP, and I've found their technical department absolutely superb at every turn (their replacement parts costs are less superb, for sure ) 13 hours ago, ProDave said: What is starting to puzzle me, taking the boiler example as a comparison, is why the supplier does not just contact the manufacturer to ask for a service visit. That alone makes me wonder what else I do not know. Because the seller will have to pay for it. Bear in mind that if they're offering a 7 year warranty, they aren't expecting problems to arise very often, so this will be an unusual situation and they'll be skeptical. At the moment, they probably feel it's more likely you've installed it wrongly or damaged it in storage than it being a defective unit, so why should they pay for a warranty call? I have to admit that my first step here would have been to pick to phone up and have chat with the seller about what's happened. It may be that they can take you through some diagnostics that will help get to the bottom of the issue. Since you've started with demands for a warranty claim, their initial response may be one of defensiveness. One other thing: take some photos of the logs showing that this isn't actually a new unit, and that the error codes existed on arrival. If those are accidentally wiped or overwritten, you'll want a record. Good luck. You'll get there in the end, but I'm sure you don't need this right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, jack said: Not for warranty support, no. Responsibility for providing a warranty absolutely rests with the seller (even if they have to engage the manufacturer to do the warranty work). I don’t think that’s quite right. The seller is responsible for supply of the goods and has to comply with the terms of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 that makes provision for the product to be fit for purpose, whereas a warranty is a type of additional promise or guarantee that the manufacturer might provide (or possibly the seller / installer). After 6 months under the Consumer Rights Act the burden is on the owner to prove that the fault is due to a manufacturing fault or whatever so it’s often far easier to make a call on the warranty instead that means going direct to the manufacturer. Edited June 12, 2018 by newhome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 2 hours ago, newhome said: I don’t think that’s quite right. The seller is responsible for supply of the goods and has to comply with the terms of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 that makes provision for the product to be fit for purpose, whereas a warranty is a type of additional promise or guarantee that the manufacturer might provide (or possibly the seller / installer). After 6 months under the Consumer Rights Act the burden is on the owner to prove that the fault is due to a manufacturing fault or whatever so it’s often far easier to make a call on the warranty instead that means going direct to the manufacturer. Sorry, I meant warranty in the loose sense of being responsible for the quality of the goods, not in the sense of a manufacturer's warranty. It isn't particularly clear from the sales listing quoted above whether the "7 year warranty" is from the seller or manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 14 minutes ago, jack said: Sorry, I meant warranty in the loose sense of being responsible for the quality of the goods, not in the sense of a manufacturer's warranty. It isn't particularly clear from the sales listing quoted above whether the "7 year warranty" is from the seller or manufacturer. Yes I agree the listing isn’t very clear. As it doesn’t clearly state manufacturer in the listing I would assume that the supplier is offering this just as John Lewis offers a 2 year warranty on most things. If you read how to use the JL warranty there is a dedicated JL helpline number to use. And bringing it back to this it should sit with the supplier to address. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 I have just come off the phone from speaking to Trading Standards. On their advice my next move is a recorded delivery letter stating it is not of satisfactory quality (because it does not work) and I am requesting a free repair or replacement within a reasonable time. I then have to give them 14 days to respond and if no response or non favourable, continue with trading standards who now have this complaint logged. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 30 minutes ago, ProDave said: I have just come off the phone from speaking to Trading Standards. On their advice my next move is a recorded delivery letter stating it is not of satisfactory quality (because it does not work) and I am requesting a free repair or replacement within a reasonable time. I then have to give them 14 days to respond and if no response or non favourable, continue with trading standards who now have this complaint logged. Sounds like the least hassle way forward to me. In some respects it is reminiscent of the hassle we had when we had a new boiler fitted years ago. The installers were a big local company, and they came out to "repair" the new boiler about 8 or 9 times in the first year. The thing just kept shutting down, always when it tried to fire up first thing in the morning. In the end I got sick and tired of them not being able to sort it and went to another heating engineer, who was also stumped as to what the problem was, but he suggested going back to the manufacturer, which I did, and they (reluctantly) acknowledged that there was a design issue with the position of a pressure sensor and when their modification kit was fitted the boiler became very reliable. Had I just gone to Trading Standards in the first place I'm damned sure that things would have been resolved more quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 I believe I have a resolution to this. I should know for certain before the end of next week if the offer that has been made is genuine and actually happens.. If it does I will tell you the outcome, and the action I took that I believe resulted in a resolution being offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, ProDave said: I believe I have a resolution to this. I should know for certain before the end of next week if the offer that has been made is genuine and actually happens.. If it does I will tell you the outcome, and the action I took that I believe resulted in a resolution being offered. Fabulous! Hope it works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, ProDave said: believe I have a resolution to this. I should know for certain before the end of next week if the offer that has been made is genuine and actually happens.. If it does I will tell you the outcome, and the action I took that I believe resulted in a resolution being offered. Still a pain in the posterior though - hope this sorts it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 The "resolution" to this is on it's way. Literally. Firstly how did I persuade them to take the issue seriously? Well mainly thanks to another forum member, I found that the company I bought it from, and the brand name that it was sold under, are owned by a well know national company that owns amongst other things a builders merchant and a DIY chain (I did not know that at the time of my purchase) So I stopped talking to the monkey and went for the Organ Grinder in the form of the CEO of that parent company with my issue, keeping the message polite, factual and non threatening. I typed my message last Thursday and kept in in my draft folder reading and re reading it until I was sure everything was correct and finally sent it late Thursday evening. By mid Friday morning I had received a phone call with the offer of a resolution. They really don't want to repair this unit and then have to support it throughout the remainder of the warranty. So the resolution offered is they are sending a different make of heat pump, a more well known make and still a current model. I now have confirmation it is on a pallet en-route to me. There will be a small amount of re plumbing and a lot of rewiring when the new one gets here but lets hope this one is not another dud. At least I will be connecting and testing it quite quickly after it arrives. They don't want the old one back. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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