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Edpm at edges


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Back in the day I'd come across roofs being flood tested. There was a fashion too for really tall parapets to hide the roof top plant. I remember the first one ever that I saw  (in Chelsea) that was pretty deep. Well tbh I didn't see it until too late. To access it you had to climb down a short ladder from a plant room. As a young apprentice, all gung ho, my slightly older, wiser colleague insisted I went first. Thinking he was being polite I went down straight down the ladder and was knee deep in mill pond still water before I knew it. How HE laughed! 

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1 hour ago, Cpd said:

It’s a real disappointment for you man...... I am dealing with water problems on my shed windows.,... it’s bypassing vertical rubber seals due to the wind forcing the water between the glass and the rubber. Improved seals will be the solution for me. However you problem is way bigger and as others have said  there is no easy fix. If the EPDM is leaking at any point on the roof then your in a world of pain but you tested this by flooding the area ?

Was this when the upstands were in but prior to the windows Being fitted ?

What level did you flood it to ?

You’ve eliminated the flashings as you tarped them and then did a flood test again......

when you first flood tested what was the flood lever overflow ? Ie where did the water run of first ?

Since that point you have raised the water level significantly (75mm concrete,clippings,sand,  pavers) I would there for assume the leak has to be between the old flood level and the top of the pavers.

 Finding out at what level the leak starts will help to identify where the problem is......  

Yeah flooded it with the steel on ( so I knew the steel hadn’t punctured it )

only flooded about 3cm depth because the upstands were tiny ! Roofers fault !

Then I added more rubber so I could increase the height of the upstands. I *assume* my joint onto the original rubber is at fault - but who knows .

Seems plausible ?

Going to break out those pavers around the upstand .

Check any rubber ‘laps’ are tight - though the water is getting in below that .

Spoke to said company; really helpful  . They do have a product that will bond to the edpm and concrete . So that’s my next stop .

Refit the glass ; then hose it for a week .

No idea how to implement a drain system in this scenario .

Tge guy I spoke to said UV was the issue with most things but as the seam would be buried not an issue .

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Before I began this build I knew the hole in the ground and the waterproofing would be my biggest issues .

What I wanted to do is have the newton membrane over the ceiling running into the wall membrane . How it goes around and up the upstand I have no idea .

So I called newton ! They said it is possible perhaps !!

So

Sealant around edpm / concrete join .

Then newton membrane as fail safe - those upstands will be a dog .

Must be possible ; I’ve seen those nice curved cellars have the membrane wrap all the way around . Should of built a curved underground house ?

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Can anyone see anything wrong with the 'theory' of dimpled membrane on the ceiling?

After all it's exactly the same issue with the walls - they effectively leak because all the precautions taken will ( or have!) failed i.e. land drain; plastic sheet over exterior of wall before concrete pour.

Is the logic acceptable? not thinking about implementation yet........

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3 minutes ago, Cpd said:

If you put it on the ceiling and walls where is the water going to go once it gets down to floor level.........the next problem will be you will not be able to fix anything through this ! 

Nah,

I'm having this system for the walls already. It runs into an internal drain then out to a pump. You have special fixings to attach the membrane.

It's a standard way to 'waterproof' underground walls (and floors) ; manage the water rather than prevent ingress.

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Any form of internal ceiling waterproofing is going to require two things:

 

1. A uniform fall to all walls in order to allow water to drain behind the wall membranes.

 

2. A level of insulation that meets building regs underneath it, as the water ingress will render any external insulation ineffective.

 

All told I reckon this is a non-starter, and you're better off looking at another fix.  Looking at what you've got, then it seems highly likely that the cause of the EPDM failure is as @Onoff says, the added strips around the upstands.  This is fixable, by removing the pavers around those upstands, perhaps carefully removing some of the underlying concrete (if you have to - better if you can get access to the roofer-laid part without doing this) and then making a professional and robust repair to the EPDM where it extends upwards.  At the same time, I'd also think about whether you can create some form of drain to remove standing water from around the upstands. 

 

One thought I had was whether you could slice the underside of the pavers around the upstand at an angle, then create a well-bonded mortar bed at an angle sloping away from the upstand all around, rather like haunching, so that although the top of the pavers adjacent to the  upstands looked level and flush, the solid base under them sloped outwards.

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32 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

If you have membrane on the ceiling it will need to have a fall to the walls or water will just collect and pond up there.  You could just pitch a tent!

Yep

i would have to build an internal vaulted ‘frame’

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45 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Any form of internal ceiling waterproofing is going to require two things:

 

1. A uniform fall to all walls in order to allow water to drain behind the wall membranes.

 

2. A level of insulation that meets building regs underneath it, as the water ingress will render any external insulation ineffective.

 

All told I reckon this is a non-starter, and you're better off looking at another fix.  Looking at what you've got, then it seems highly likely that the cause of the EPDM failure is as @Onoff says, the added strips around the upstands.  This is fixable, by removing the pavers around those upstands, perhaps carefully removing some of the underlying concrete (if you have to - better if you can get access to the roofer-laid part without doing this) and then making a professional and robust repair to the EPDM where it extends upwards.  At the same time, I'd also think about whether you can create some form of drain to remove standing water from around the upstands. 

 

One thought I had was whether you could slice the underside of the pavers around the upstand at an angle, then create a well-bonded mortar bed at an angle sloping away from the upstand all around, rather like haunching, so that although the top of the pavers adjacent to the  upstands looked level and flush, the solid base under them sloped outwards.

I could insulate underneath that’s no problem .

To break out the concrete without damaging edpm will be tricky - I can envisage me tearing it - but you could argue it’s fixable . Haunching around upstand - yep that’s do able .

 

Getting down to the roofers rubber is tricky . It’s rubber then 35mm reinforced concrete on it . Wouldn’t be difficult to wreck the horizontal rubber ....

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35 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

BTW is the steel still structural or was it just temporary?  It looks badly corroded.

It’s permanent.

Steel has been exposed to the elements for some time . As the water tracks along it now ; it’s not helping 

Edited by pocster
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Looking at this corner fills me with dread..... there are obvious massive gaps where the patch has not been sealed..... if this is commonplace then you will have multiple leeks around all your windows. Sorry  I have nothing helpful to say

33341AE5-922C-4453-8499-2C7B0A8D3CC2.jpeg

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11 hours ago, Cpd said:

Looking at this corner fills me with dread..... there are obvious massive gaps where the patch has not been sealed..... if this is commonplace then you will have multiple leeks around all your windows. Sorry  I have nothing helpful to say

33341AE5-922C-4453-8499-2C7B0A8D3CC2.jpeg

I know 

I didn’t sleep last night ?

Architect coming to look at 2pm

I’m starting to think I need to rip everything out - literally down to the rubber ???????

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I think you may be able to get away with only breaking out the concrete around the upstands, if the job is tackled with a great deal of care.  It seems highly likely that the joints around the upstands are the cause, from looking at all the photos you've posted.

 

One way to do this may be to use a diamond cutter, carefully set to a depth that cuts just deeper than the rebar, to cut through the concrete that's under the pavers around every upstand, maybe a foot or so away from them.  The concrete won't have adhered to the EPDM, so, with luck, you may be able to carefully crack it away and lift sections off around each upstand without damaging the EPDM.

 

A proper repair of the EPDM can then be made, running the EPDM right up and over the point where the window frame seats.  The "moat" formed by cutting away the concrete would be an effective way of testing for water ingress after the repair, too. 

 

If the roof still leaks after doing this, then I think it may all have to come up, but I reckon it's worth a try at a minimally invasive fix first.

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1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

I think you may be able to get away with only breaking out the concrete around the upstands, if the job is tackled with a great deal of care.  It seems highly likely that the joints around the upstands are the cause, from looking at all the photos you've posted.

 

One way to do this may be to use a diamond cutter, carefully set to a depth that cuts just deeper than the rebar, to cut through the concrete that's under the pavers around every upstand, maybe a foot or so away from them.  The concrete won't have adhered to the EPDM, so, with luck, you may be able to carefully crack it away and lift sections off around each upstand without damaging the EPDM.

 

A proper repair of the EPDM can then be made, running the EPDM right up and over the point where the window frame seats.  The "moat" formed by cutting away the concrete would be an effective way of testing for water ingress after the repair, too. 

 

If the roof still leaks after doing this, then I think it may all have to come up, but I reckon it's worth a try at a minimally invasive fix first.

Ok - you understand my concern ; assume worst - hope for best .

Will break out around the worst window . Will post pics 

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I’m not sure about this !

Dead slow !!

Managed on the shallowest part to get down to the rebar layer . Carefully by hand removing cement away from rubber upstand . There’s a completely unsealed bit ! . This window I didn’t add upstand height too - so this was the quality roofers !

The more I dig the more certain I’ll be taking the lot up . From the edge pavers should come up easily for re use .

 

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Definitely did not heighten this one - can prove it !

Too the left you see my concrete block then the wooden firring - no additional height stuff .

The more I dig the more disillusioned I get .

Can clearly see this lap is free ffs !

 

 

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