Securing Bar Shower valves

[JanetE]

We have these Grohe bar shower fittings and are wondering how to securely fit them place, they are really quite heavy and will need a solid support behind the plasterboard and tiling.  There is a bewildering array of different fittings! 

 

Any advice would be much appreciated 

[Vijay]

What about these? http://gripitfixings.co.uk/new-gripit-2015/

[Onoff]

I used something like this for the valve, affixed to a noggin in the stud wall behind:

http://www.bathroomsandshowersdirect.co.uk/grohe---shower-valves/grohtherm/grohe-18153-grohtherm-fixing-bracket-chrome?gclid=CIXml5SO2M0CFewW0wodCzoK-w

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, JanetE said:

We have these Grohe bar shower fittings and are wondering how to securely fit them place, they are really quite heavy and will need a solid support behind the plasterboard and tiling.  There is a bewildering array of different fittings! 

 

Any advice would be much appreciated 

Normally have a bar that attaches to a noggin and the pipe work is plumbed onto that at first fix. Shower bar fitted after it's been tiled

[Jeremy Harris]

This is one of those things that needs sorting before the plasterboard goes on.  As above, you fit substantial noggins wherever you need to fit anything to a wall.  I used 19mm plywood, fitted with 50 x 25 battens, between the studs wherever anything was going to be fixed to the wall.  So I have them for all the wall lights, wall mounted TV point, in the ceilings for things like MVHR terminals and a fixing for a cooker hood, plus pull switches in the bathrooms, where the thermostats fit the hall wall, the shower valve and head fixings, everywhere that a wall cabinet was to be fitted, or a wall mounted mirror.

All told there are probably around 25 to 30 of these plywood noggins fitted behind the plasterboard, often with holes drilled for the cables for things like wall lights etc.  It needed a fair bit of thought to get them all in the right place, plus taking a lot of reference photos so I could check where they were after the plasterboard and plastering had been done, but it has made it a lot easier to fit things like the shower valve, kitchen cabinets, wall lights etc.

[Temp]

+1 to sorting it before the plasterboard goes on. 

I recommend a waterproof plasterboard like 12mm hardi backer board in showers.   

[TerryE]

There seems to be three variants for fitting.  All present a pair of ¾" BSP males at a horizontal 150mm separation:

• The bar mounting as described by Peter and OnOff.  This has 2×15mm female pipe compression fittings to accept the input 15mm compatible feeds behind the plasterboard and tiling.
• 2×½" to ¾" BSP males at an offest.  These take 2×½" BSP females at horizontal 150mm separation
• 2×inline 15mm compression female to ¾" BSP male which take 2×15mm pipe ends clearing the tile and again at a horizontal 150mm separation.

As I see it in all three cases there are two key issues:

1. the fitting or pipe must be fixed firmly at as a set set depth with perhaps 4mm tolerance otherwise either the covers won't screw down fully or there will be insufficient exposed thread to clamp the shower bar down firmly. So you really need to know what type of tile and fixing profile you are going to use before you do the plaster boarding.
2. You plaster board before you have the opportunity to pressure test.

My current thinking is that we board the wet surfaces in green plasterboard and don't skim these, so we seal and fix the tiles directly.  Given this isn't it just a lot easer to construct a panel around whatever noggin position and leave this panel open when boarding out and plastering?  This was we can wait until after the plasters have left site before making up the noggin and pressure testing before removing the screwing the noggin into its place; replacing and sealing the green access panel and then tiling and finally refitting the shower mixer bar when convenient.

Nick, you must do this all the time.  What is your preferred approach?   

[Onoff]

I'm doing my wet room corner in Knauf Aquapanel board and possibly around the bath. The rest of the bathroom in green plasterboard. 

Where's the Welsh Wizard when you need him? 

[JanetE]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

Where's the Welsh Wizard when you need him? 

Sitting by the BBQ with a glass of beer in his hand?! 

[Jeremy Harris]

7 hours ago, TerryE said:

There seems to be three variants for fitting.  All present a pair of ¾" BSP males at a horizontal 150mm separation:

• The bar mounting as described by Peter and OnOff.  This has 2×15mm female pipe compression fittings to accept the input 15mm compatible feeds behind the plasterboard and tiling.
• 2×½" to ¾" BSP males at an offest.  These take 2×½" BSP females at horizontal 150mm separation
• 2×inline 15mm compression female to ¾" BSP male which take 2×15mm pipe ends clearing the tile and again at a horizontal 150mm separation.

As I see it in all three cases there are two key issues:

1. the fitting or pipe must be fixed firmly at as a set set depth with perhaps 4mm tolerance otherwise either the covers won't screw down fully or there will be insufficient exposed thread to clamp the shower bar down firmly. So you really need to know what type of tile and fixing profile you are going to use before you do the plaster boarding.
2. You plaster board before you have the opportunity to pressure test.

My current thinking is that we board the wet surfaces in green plasterboard and don't skim these, so we seal and fix the tiles directly.  Given this isn't it just a lot easer to construct a panel around whatever noggin position and leave this panel open when boarding out and plastering?  This was we can wait until after the plasters have left site before making up the noggin and pressure testing before removing the screwing the noggin into its place; replacing and sealing the green access panel and then tiling and finally refitting the shower mixer bar when convenient.

Nick, you must do this all the time.  What is your preferred approach?   

Reading this reminded me that I sat down with the shower valve working out the thickness of backing board to fit behind the plasterboard to get the spacing just right.  Our shower valve had a fair bit of depth adjustment, but looked wrong with it projecting out at the thinnest wall panel setting, so I remember fitting a deeper panel in where the shower valve is fitted to get things to look as neat as possible.

I suspect you'll need to do the same with this unit, taking into account the build up from the plasterboard, tiles etc.

Nick will undoubtedly have the perfect answer!

[Tennentslager]

When I did mine I used the fixed bar in option 1 but it was too deeply fitted with not enough thread showing once the tiles were fitted.

In the end I had to cut the chrome covers that go on last and trim 10mm off of these using a dremel multi tool.

The grohe cover fittings were 20mm deep so had some room to workwith...lucky for me and lucky I managed a nice clean cut.

[ProDave]

8 hours ago, TerryE said:

 

1. the fitting or pipe must be fixed firmly at as a set set depth with perhaps 4mm tolerance otherwise either the covers won't screw down fully or there will be insufficient exposed thread to clamp the shower bar down firmly. So you really need to know what type of tile and fixing profile you are going to use before you do the plaster boarding.
2. You plaster board before you have the opportunity to pressure test.

 

Nick, you must do this all the time.  What is your preferred approach?   

You can pressure test  by fitting the shower bar before the plasterboard is on and testting.

@Nickfromwales posted a much better fixing bracket arrangement  for bar mixers before.I am sure he will be along soon.

[Nickfromwales]

Sorry I'm late to the party

These are the ones I use. Just fit a couple of 18mm plywood squares where these are to be fixed ( drill the ply to take the pipe centrally ) and that's it. No need for any of the above complexity ( and I used to use the supplied cranked unions when I first started , never again ) and bobs your uncle. 

[Nickfromwales]

I'll elaborate a bit more later, ( when this combis fitted  ). ?

[TerryE]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

These are the ones I use. Just fit a couple of 18mm plywood squares where these are to be fixed ( drill the ply to take the pipe centrally ) and that's it ... I used to use the supplied cranked unions when I first started , never again ... 

Thanks Nick. What you recommend is what I meant on my option 3.  The cranked unions were the second.  I quite like option 1, but I was concerned about the risk of the situation that Crofter described.  I suspect we'll go with your method.  There are a couple of good YouTube tutorials on using these.  So when are you going to start your YouTube channel?

[Nickfromwales]

In my spare time of course 

[JanetE]

Thanks for this information it's really useful.

We are using Hep 20, 15mm flexible pipe, so I assume, if we follow Nick's that we just bring these pipes through the 18mm ply?

Edited July 4, 2016 by JanetE

[JanetE]

Quote

 

[Nickfromwales]

No. Convert to copper prior to exposing the pipe so you can make the pipe off satisfactorily into the compression fittings of the kit I linked. I never terminate push fit of any breed into compression, always convert back to copper first.  

Have the push fit rising to a Hepworth straight coupler and then ( if you have the depth ) pull a bend mechanically, if not use a Hepworth bend, but you must have copper exposed for the final connection. 

In most situations, with stud walls, you not be able to bend the push fit pipe at 90o anyway, as the available depth wouldn't allow you to maintain the stated minimum bending radius . 

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, JanetE said:

 

He's already sacked ! Didn't fill the screw holes with silicone before putting the screws halfway in, and then another dab behind the screw head before fully tightening. . 8/10  

I really don't like seeing compression going onto push fit and with those tails secured in the wall, if the plastic pipe got damaged prior to / during fitting, your buggered. I don't like those odds, especially when your tiled and grouted by that stage.

He also didn't mention hand tightening one nut of the shower onto one fully tightened backplate, and then offering the other into a partially tightened backplate to allow some lateral movement. That way if your not dead on 150mm centres ( not the 1500mm he's says ! ) you can still get the second nut on, and then using a long reach pozidriver, you can tighten up the screws accordingly. Once tightened, remove the bar mixer, screw on the covers and refit the bar mixer, and then test.

What he also doesn't say is that water can leak back down the pipe work from these kits, so you wouldn't know until a lot of water has gone behind the wall / void. Another reason why I insist on copper, as you can tighten the olive much more firmly.

I did like the bit where he says "Lovely!" . Overall he gets a 6/10. Good, but no cigar sorry.

 

[TerryE]

Ah, but it got you doing a detailed rebuttal, didn't it?  Thanks for instructions on how to do it correctly.  At least this means I can smile smugly at Jan, because I told her (i) you cant' safely use Hep2O pipe in a copper compression fitting and (ii) Hep2O pipe won't take the bend anyway.  Her argument was: "that's what the guy did".  So now you've got the casting vote.

[Jeremy Harris]

That's one of the problems with the ease of access to information we have via the web; we have no easy way of checking whether or not it's correct, unless we have a "Master Plumber" on hand to show us the errors!

[Nickfromwales]

Until one arrives, I'll try and fill the void.  

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said:

Until one arrives, I'll try and fill the void.  

I was going to start a petition to try and make it site policy that anyone mentioning YOUR name had to follow it with "hallowed be his name"! 

[TerryE]

On 04/07/2016 at 08:37, Tennentslager said:

When I did mine I used the fixed bar in option 1 but it was too deeply fitted with not enough thread showing once the tiles were fitted.

In the end I had to cut the chrome covers that go on last and trim 10mm off of these using a dremel multi tool.

The grohe cover fittings were 20mm deep so had some room to workwith...lucky for me and lucky I managed a nice clean cut.

 

Just in case anyone else comes across this,  IMO the separate plates have the advantage that they are mounted on the tile surface and hidden by a cover.  If you still haven't got enough exposed thread then an alternative to start trimming covers is to put a 5mm patching piece (that is cut to less than the internal diameter of the cover) behind the brass plates and use longer screws.  This lifts the exposed ¾" BSP out correspondingly increasing the exposed thread.