"As Built" - A way to save significant dosh?

[epsilonGreedy]

Just got my first quote from an architect to bring a detailed approved planning permission design up to Building Control diagram standards, £3,600 plus VAT plus another £2000 if I want an architects certificate. This is for a two story brick and block 1500 sq ft house.

 

I have heard about the concept of "as built" for energy performance design certification, can this be extended to the whole building?

 

Edit: The prompt for my question was the reference to Building Control application option 2 at the following link. It sounds like a documentation lite route with further clarifications provided mid build.

 

https://www.northampton.gov.uk/info/200011/building-control/1694/building-control-guidance---make-a-building-regulation-application/1

Edited April 12, 2018 by epsilonGreedy

[ProDave]

You first do a design SAP for building control approval. At the end that is updated with an "as built" SAP for BC sign off to take account of any changes that might have happened.

 

If I had been quoted those sorts of figures from an architect, I would have bitten their hand off.  Some think I don't like architects, that is not true. What I dislike is when I last tried, they wanted to charge me roughly 6 times what you have been quoted for the same scope of work, and they would not even negotiate the fees a little bit, let alone bring them down to the reasonable fee you have been quoted.

[epsilonGreedy]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If I had been quoted those sorts of figures from an architect, I would have bitten their hand off.

 

 

This surprises me Dave, I had you down as the determined near to 100 percent diy self builder. Some here have done their own building control diagrams and applications. Another paid £500 for a technical draftsman to knock his diagrams into shape.

 

Was there some engineering complexity with your house design that would have made a £3600 Building Control spec good value for money?

[PeterW]

9 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

This surprises me Dave, I had you down as the determined near to 100 percent diy self builder. Some here have done their own building control diagrams and applications. Another paid £500 for a technical draftsman to knock his diagrams into shape.

 

Was there some engineering complexity with your house design that would have made a £3600 Building Control spec good value for money?

 

Out of interest did the architect do the original designs for planning..?

 

The £2k is effectively your warranty - check your lender will accept it as some will and some won't.

[epsilonGreedy]

3 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Out of interest did the architect do the original designs for planning..?

 

 

No the original architect was commissioned by the plot seller and is reputed to be the high price guy in my locality. I will give him a call.

 

I hope to complete without a mortgage.

 

 

[bissoejosh]

Just to clarify £3600 + vat for building control drawings, no planning etc to deal with or redesigns? Sounds a lot to me but I'm one of the people who did it myself. Cost me about £60 for the software I think and I learned a skill at the same time plus a huge amount about what we wanted to build technically.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by bissoejosh

[PeterW]

Ok so have you actually purchased the rights to the design as part of the plot purchase and is it specifically cited in your contract ..?

 

If not, the original architect can claim it is their design - the new one may well ask you to sign a disclaimer stating you own the design rights so tread carefully...! 

[ProDave]

In my case I did the planning drawings, then paid an architectural engineer and a SE to detail the design,

 

The exorbitant architect fees I referred to was for the previous house, where the two architects wanted to base their fees on a high percentage of the estimated build cost one quoted £25K the other £30K and neither would negotiate. To make matters worse both estimates of the build cost were roughly twice what it actually cost.  Had they offered a reasonable fee as in this example I would have used them,.  In the end in that case I paid £2K to the timber frame company for all the drawings.

[Dreadnaught]

53 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ok so have you actually purchased the rights to the design as part of the plot purchase and is it specifically cited in your contract ..?

 

 

On this subject, I spoke to the architect of the plot I am trying to buy. He said that I could use the plans that he had prepared for planning purposes without needing to concern myself with the IP so long as I was building for the purpose as originally intended when the plans were prepared, i.e. building a single home to live in. Of course it would be a different matter if I was going to use the design multiple times or indeed try and sell it on to another self builder.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Dreadnaught

[Mr Punter]

2 hours ago, Dreadnaught said:

 

On this subject, I spoke to the architect of the plot I am trying to buy. He said that I could use the plans that he had prepared for planning purposes without needing to concern myself with the IP so long as I was building for the purpose as originally intended when the plans were prepared, i.e. building a single home to live in. Of course it would be a different matter if I was going to use the design multiple times or indeed try and sell it on to another self builder.

 

I have known architects try and charge a fee if the plot they designed for is bought by others.  If it were me I would tell them to do one, as I don't think they would win in court (or even try).

[vivienz]

Seems reasonable to me.  Mine is about £5k + VAT but they are earning all of that at the moment in making their design work with the MBC build system as there's lots of back and forth and tweaks to ensure that the original design is retained but that it works as a building.

[Mr Punter]

7 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

The prompt for my question was the reference to Building Control application option 2 at the following link. It sounds like a documentation lite route with further clarifications provided mid build.

 

 

If you are building a new house, do a full plans application.  To do it on a Building Notice would be very risky.  The Building Notice is just used for small projects, where the consequence of something not being to the Inspector's liking would not be too dire.

 

Get all the details on the Full Plans application and as much of this approved as you can.  They sometimes approve subject to conditions but try and resolve as many of these as you can before you start, so that as long as you do what is stated on the approved plans you will be OK.

[Jeremy Harris]

As above, I'd go for a full plans application, as it's damned risky to do a new build on a building notice and could easily cost more on rectification following a failed inspection than the costs of preparing a full plans application.

 

I did all my own drawings etc and submitted the full plans application myself.  At a guess it was probably a couple of days work initially, plus a few hours spent answering a few questions from building control.  If it's any help. everything I submitted for building control approval as a full plans submission is here: http://www.mayfly.eu/2013/09/part-fifteen-the-site-is-finally-ready/

 

I didn't have to buy any software as I already had a copy of AutoCad, and have been using it for decades, and the design SAP was done with the free version of the Stroma FSAP software, which is fine for the design submission, as there is no requirement to use an accredited assessor at this stage, and the software isn't hard to get to grips with.

[Alexphd1]

I am embarrassed to say I was one of those who employed a archiectect on percent of HIS projected build cost.... before I found ebuild and buildhub I was naive to all this. 

 

There was a guy on grand designs once who built a metal shoebox shaped building with a sliding roof on a sliver of land in London who submitted his build warrant drawings during the build. 

 

I don't think it's worth it as the end of the day I believe you would still need to pay and submit drawings but if anything wrong you are way astearn in time and money.

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

On 4/12/2018 at 11:23, bissoejosh said:

Just to clarify £3600 + vat for building control drawings, no planning etc to deal with or redesigns?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes except I asked for a minor tweak to an internal wall which involved opening up an internal glazed double door aperture just a tad.

 

On 4/12/2018 at 11:23, bissoejosh said:

Cost me about £60 for the software I think and I learned a skill at the same time plus a huge amount about what we wanted to build technically.

 

 

 

 

Did you use any public domain info as sources for this initiative? I have book marked a link to the @JSHarris diy building control docs but not had a look yet.

 

I hope that engineering specifications and diagrams provided by external suppliers for ground and first floors plus the roof trusses will suffice for some of the BC application requirements.

[Jeremy Harris]

9 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

I hope that engineering specifications and diagrams provided by external suppliers for ground and first floors plus the roof trusses will suffice for some of the BC application requirements.

 

They did for me.  I pointed to some standard approved details for things like the rafter/ridge beam detail, and the fact that our house frame was signed off by the frame company's SE satisfied our BCO, although I did need to point out that we had an agreement in the UK to accept NSAI certification (NSAI being the Irish certification for timber frame construction) as being equivalent to UK certification, and vice versa (our frame was built in Ireland).

[epsilonGreedy]

25 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

They did for me. 

 

 

Good to know.

 

Is anyone aware of possible penalty costs should a bumbling amateur need multiple goes at submitting an acceptable set of build specifications?

 

I have already noted that my local Local Authority BC office warns of extra costs for builds that amble along a slow rate, I think they charge extra after 12 months.

[ProDave]

Our building warrant took a few months to finalise. There was some  rework of drawings needed and some re sumbission. It seemed every month BC sen a list of outstanding points waiting to be addresses.  An the whole they are a lot more approachable than planning and much more flexible to work with you to get everything agreed. And there were no extra charges for alterations during the process.

[newhome]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Is anyone aware of possible penalty costs should a bumbling amateur need multiple goes at submitting an acceptable set of build specifications?

 

I have already noted that my local Local Authority BC office warns of extra costs for builds that amble along a slow rate, I think they charge extra after 12 months.

 

My build dragged on for years. I just had to pay to extend the building warrant every 9 months. Cost 50 quid a pop. We were the archetypal bumbling amateurs but they were pretty accommodating in the main until we made quite a big error which I will start a separate thread about. Even then it worked out ok in the end. 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I also found building control to be (with one exception) very flexible and helpful, who didn't seem at all bothered by our pretty long build time schedule at all.  All told I found that our first and last building inspectors were very helpful indeed, and our BCO was both quick to answer some often unusual questions as well as always offering advice that was first rate.

[epsilonGreedy]

An update: It pays to shop around.

 

I went back to the plot sellers architect and he was too busy to undertake the task of producing Building Control drawings. I subsequently discovered he is one of the last "quill & pen" architects in the region (the small ink overruns at plan edges were a clue in retrospect).

 

Anyhow he recommended a local firm of Architectural Technologists who will produce the BC drawings for £1200. 

[Dreadnaught]

2 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Anyhow he recommended a local firm of Architectural Technologists who will produce the BC drawings for £1200. 

 

Wow, that's a good price. Might you be able to PM me their details?