Per m2 cost discrepancies, enthusiasts v. national figures.

[epsilonGreedy]

I have found a plot with PP and now I am trying to figure out if I can afford the build. The dilemma I face is public domain figures on building costs indicate that £900 per sq meter is achievable in my region North-East whereas I notice that the figures quoted in forum threads here are in the £1200 to £1500 range.

 

Can this discrepancy be attributed to forum folks here building their "forever home" (to use fashionable TV parlance) and thus they incorporate deluxe extras?

Edited January 29, 2018 by epsilonGreedy

[Mr Punter]

£900 is achievable if you do a fair amount yourself, ground conditions are easy and the house is simple.

[PeterW]

Depends on how hands on you want to be ..? A £20k kitchen and £10k on bathrooms adds £200/sqm to the average sized build. 

[ragg987]

Also the national figures seem to focus on build in the literal sense, and omit (or under-play) other costs like planning, architects, build control, insurances, demolition, getting services in, project management, portaloo, portacabin for workers to take a break, landscaping etc.

 

In my opinion £900 is not possible if you are paying someone to do the build and all the other pieces I mention. It may be achievable if you do a large portion yourself, but then you need to balance the time you spend working on the build against the wages you can bring in to pay for the build.

 

And you are right, self-builders probably want more than the volume builders can provide so specs will be better - e.g. air tightness, insulation, glazing sizes and specs etc - soon adds up!

[jack]

1 hour ago, ragg987 said:

In my opinion £900 is not possible if you are paying someone to do the build and all the other pieces I mention. 

 

Agreed. You can cut down on expensive materials, use second hand or seconds materials from ebay, use cheap imaginative finishes etc, but fundamentally, someone needs to do the actual work, and there's a floor for hourly/day rates for trades.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, ragg987 said:

Also the national figures seem to focus on build in the literal sense, and omit (or under-play) other costs like planning, architects, build control, insurances, demolition, getting services in, project management, portaloo, portacabin for workers to take a break, landscaping etc.

 

In my opinion £900 is not possible if you are paying someone to do the build and all the other pieces I mention...

 

Not what I want to hear but something I should acknowledge I fear.

 

One financial joker I can play is the option to move in (subject to building control temporary residence checks) and complete the interior in stages over the following year or two.. My partner is keen to go down the self build route now that she is disenchanted by available properties in the main market. She has surprised me with the low bar of roughing it deemed tolerable in order to grasp a long term property vision.

[ragg987]

Sounds good. There is also the question of VAT, if you get this wrong your bill has the potential to increase by up to 20%

 

VAT can be zero for the majority of a new build, either at source (e.g. your builder) or through a reclaim (e.g. materials). You have 3 months from sign off of the build for this facility. And you might need some form of sign off for it to be habitable.

 

I am not 100% on this point in your Joker scenario, just alerting you to it.

[epsilonGreedy]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

A £20k kitchen and £10k on bathrooms adds £200/sqm to the average sized build.

 

Until you posted I was not that familiar with the dynamics of the ££/sqm equation. I am surprised by how the cost escalates even though I should not be.

 

Time for some creative thinking.

 

Belfast sink perched on top of cheap wooden trestle with plinth + white 1960's style free standing enameled electric cooker. That's the kitchen sorted for £200.

 

Next 

 

 

[Hecateh]

I'm building on a budget - doing none of the practical work myself. Downsizing to fund my retirement and thoroughly disillusioned by what was available.  The best quote I got came in at just under £100 per sqm.  89k for approx 96 sqm.  This didn't include land - I am building in my garden; landscaping - apart from drive; flooring finish, or pre building costs.  It also didn't include bathroom or kitchen although it did include fitting of these.  
My builder is a 'one man band' with a regular team of 4 or 5 'lads' for the building stage, and a regular plumber, sparky and plasterer.  He has experience in that he has been in the industry since leaving school and he is now about 30, but the business is new and he has never tackled a new build before, though has built a number of extensions bigger than my house. 

This figure has already gone out the window as my house is on a slope and although he allowed for an element of retaining, the SE specified way above that.  (Quote specified what foundations were included).  So about £9k extra for foundations. (At one point he thought it could be as much as 20K).  There is no easy access to sewers resulting in the cheapest work around costing an extra 3K for an alarmed pump.  Driveway is coming in at double the size he quoted for - another few k. Underfloor heating another 3k. (No heat exchanger, MVHR or other heating upgrades)

And this, although finished to a 'good' level will not have half the upgrades that many on here are including and won't be nearly as airtight (although it will be a big improvement on my current sieve).  So with the addition of a fairly cheap kitchen, 2 ensuites and a separate loo I am probably looking at around 115k plus pre build costs of 10k (ish).  So £1300 per sqm.  

 

With regards VAT, using a builder scores as he takes the hit for paying and reclaiming and I pay tax free.  My reclaim will only be be for kitchen and sanitary ware. 
 

VAT - you can only make one claim and it has to be within 3 months of completing.  If doing it yourself you have to be able to finance this 20% until you reclaim and if you reclaim as soon as you move in you won't get any other expenditure tax free (As I understand it)

Edited January 29, 2018 by Hecateh

[nod]

20 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Until you posted I was not that familiar with the dynamics of the ££/sqm equation. I am surprised by how the cost escalates even though I should not be.

 

Time for some creative thinking.

 

Belfast sink perched on top of cheap wooden trestle with plinth + white 1960's style free standing enameled electric cooker. That's the kitchen sorted for £200.

 

Next 

 

 

Although your fixtures and fittings can rack up 

You can spend a lot of money removing spoil and filling it back up with concrete 

Our plot is very flat but we still had 750 tons of muck to take away 

and a couple of hundred tons of hardcore 100 cube of concrete 

These are things that you can’t save on I would concentrate on pricing a watertight building 

1st fix Joinery Plumbing Electrical

and plastering 

and work accordingly when it comes to kitchens and bathrooms 

You can spen a fortune on these item But also save a stack of money

[Russell griffiths]

You stated £900 per m so you must have a budget in mind and you’ve divided this by the size of the house listed in the planning. 

 

How big is the planned house ? If there is only two of you could you build smaller and extend at a later date. 

 

If it is for arguments sake a 1-1/2 story with dormers and bedrooms upstairs, could you build a shell and only fit out downstairs, 

We bought a house we plan to knock down, but could not stand the kitchen but hated the thought of spending any money, so we found a second hand kitchen in the local paper for £300 we also found a range cooker for £80 that has just blown up after 2 years of good service. 

When we bought our first house my wife was still at college and we had £20 per week spare after all the bills (1993) I remember doing a job at a hotel where they were replacing all the carpets, we lived with a blue carpet with little r ‘s all over it for a good couple of years, the hotel was the radisson. 

 

I built a large extension on the side and we didn’t have windows in it for over a year, just clear plastic. 

 

it depends how much you want it, and how handy you are, and how fit. 

 

If you have found a plot and you have the funds and it feels right buy it, work out what you are going to do with it later. 

Who dares wins rodders. 

[Hecateh]

AND - if you had told me last year I would be able to tell you all this I wouldn't have believed you.  

 

Currently - if I had known how many 'calls' on contingency there were going to be; how pathetic my architect was going to be; how awkward neighbours were going to be; I probably wouldn't have gone ahead - but ask me again in a few months.  

 

I was looking at around the 125k mark when looking to downsize so the cost is similar BUT I expect to get 20 to 30k less for the house with the reduced land (although it is a bungalow so not all want a big garden) so it is 'costing' me 20 to 30 k more.  Although I will have a MUCH better house and one far more suited to me and my lifestyle. 

[nod]

9 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

I'm building on a budget - doing none of the practical work myself. Downsizing to fund my retirement and thoroughly disillusioned by what was available.  The best quote I got came in at just under £100 per sqm.  89k for approx 96 sqm.  This didn't include land - I am building in my garden; landscaping - apart from drive; flooring finish, or pre building costs.  It also didn't include bathroom or kitchen although it did include fitting of these.  
My builder is a 'one man band' with a regular team of 4 or 5 'lads' for the building stage, and a regular plumber, sparky and plasterer.  He has experience in that he has been in the industry since leaving school and he is now about 30, but the business is new and he has never tackled a new build before, though has built a number of extensions bigger than my house. 

This figure has already gone out the window as my house is on a slope and although he allowed for an element of retaining, the SE specified way above that.  (Quote specified what foundations were included).  So about £9k extra for foundations. (At one point he thought it could be as much as 20K).  There is no easy access to sewers resulting in the cheapest work around costing an extra 3K for an alarmed pump.  Driveway is coming in at double the size he quoted for - another few k. Underfloor heating another 3k. (No heat exchanger, MVHR or other heating upgrades)

And this, although finished to a 'good' level will not have half the upgrades that many on here are including and won't be nearly as airtight (although it will be a big improvement on my current sieve).  So with the addition of a fairly cheap kitchen, 2 ensuites and a separate loo I am probably looking at around 115k plus pre build costs of 10k (ish).  So £1300 per sqm.  

 

With regards VAT, using a builder scores as he takes the hit for paying and reclaiming and I pay tax free.  My reclaim will only be be for kitchen and sanitary ware. 
 

VAT - you can only make one claim and it has to be within 3 months of completing.  If doing it yourself you have to be able to finance this 20% until you reclaim and if you reclaim as soon as you move in you won't get any other expenditure tax free (As I understand it)

A very good post

and I would guess typical of most on here No matter how many surveys you have done prior to starting You won’t know what’s down there till you start digging 

[nod]

3 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

AND - if you had told me last year I would be able to tell you all this I wouldn't have believed you.  

 

Currently - if I had known how many 'calls' on contingency there were going to be; how pathetic my architect was going to be; how awkward neighbours were going to be; I probably wouldn't have gone ahead - but ask me again in a few months.  

 

I was looking at around the 125k mark when looking to downsize so the cost is similar BUT I expect to get 20 to 30k less for the house with the reduced land (although it is a bungalow so not all want a big garden) so it is 'costing' me 20 to 30 k more.  Although I will have a MUCH better house and one far more suited to me and my lifestyle. 

I had to read the first paragraph twice

I thought it was something that I had written 

Ive certainly thought it more than once

[Hecateh]

2 minutes ago, nod said:

A very good post

and I would guess typical of most on here No matter how many surveys you have done prior to starting You won’t know what’s down there till you start digging 

So true - The SE went over the top on the foundations (building inspector - who was there and had seen the soil reports - said 'he said you've got to do what? it's a split level bungalow not a nuclear bunker')

Having said that, when excavating the drive, they came across coal, (I am on South Yorks coalfield) there was no sign of coal at all in any of the bore holes.

 

[epsilonGreedy]

20 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

... so it is 'costing' me 20 to 30 k more.  Although I will have a MUCH better house and one far more suited to me and my lifestyle.

 

And you can look forward to years of trouble free ownership of an all-new house.

 

I am currently in an old rented property and feel awkward about notifying the owners of the latest failure, £500 of oil fired boiler repairs, gummed up radiator circulation, collapsed drain, rodents in the attic, randomly tripping RCDs due to ancient wiring. 

[epsilonGreedy]

22 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

Having said that, when excavating the drive, they came across coal, (I am on South Yorks coalfield) there was no sign of coal at all in any of the bore holes.

 

Would mining your own coal seam help with your eco energy self sufficiency score?

[Hecateh]

4 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

And you can look forward to years of trouble free ownership of an all-new house.

 

I am currently in an old rented property and feel awkward about notifying the owners of the latest failure, £500 of oil fired boiler repairs, gummed up radiator circulation, collapsed drain, rodents in the attic, randomly tripping RCDs due to ancient wiring. 

 

Absolutely - and that is a main consideration as I live alone and am in my early 60's .  My priorities now are financial freedom and not having to worry about the property so the next 30 ???? years can be hedonistic   (Family history suggests I will live well into my 90's (groan) 

[Hecateh]

10 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Would mining your own coal seam help with your eco energy self sufficiency score?

Maybe lol

 

[CC45]

Our budget is less than £900 but its me doing all the work & it then takes years.  Ours will be done to a high standard and will no doubt give us a good home for a few years before we do it all again......  I spoke to someone around Xmas who had bought a plot and got a quote from a builder - they would make less loss by just selling the plot on again, its not v big or in a nice place. Mad.

 

Too much Grand Design on telly and people are gullible.  Builders must make a good living off that type.

[lizzie]

Budget.........I can just about remember all the talk of budgets in the heady days we were starting out, 2 years later its how can we juggle the finances to get it finished and still keep some pension funds. Being in our 60’s that is very close to our hearts.

 

The mantra now is just get it finished so we can get in and save the rent.

 

Months of heartache later lights are showing in tunnels (as well as in the house) and smiles are appearing. No kids to leave it to so plan B get it finished take some equity out and have a good retirement in the new house.

 

Ask me in 6 months or so was it worth it!

[Bob]

Epsilon greedy it is possible to build for £850 to £900 per sq meter less in some cases. Given a relatively ‘easy’ site the main increase in cost between £900 and £1500 is the deviation from a standard build. House builders pay no where near £1500 granted they have economies of scale but you can make up for some of that if you do it yourself. If I were in your position build the simplest structure I can it may feel simple on paper but when it starts going up there will still be a million decisions to make. Stay positive 

[Ian]

As a general rule larger houses will cost less to build per m2 of floor space than small houses and 2 storey houses will cost less per m2 than single storey.

 

A regular box shape will be cheaper than something that is T shaped etc. There's so many variables that it's difficult to generalise about cost per m2.

 

The other thing to be careful about is making sure that you are comparing like for like. Normally cost per m2 should be related to internal floor area (so not counting the thickness of the external walls).

 

My own build was a small 71m2 two bed bungalow with a long and thin shape because we were building along the gradient of a 1:8 slope. The site also had difficult access (1 km up a steep 1:5 single track narrow road). It cost £1,350 M2 with a variety of contractors doing the work. The only work I did myself was the architectural design and detailing, project management inc Bldg Regs submission etc, painting and decorating.

[Declan52]

It is possible to build cheaper than £1000 per sqm but you have to do a lot of work yourself and I mean a lot. I built a 220sqm bungalow and my bill came in at £490 per sqm. But bar plastering, electrics and plumbing I done the rest. Took 2 long hard years where I never really had a day of between my own job and the build. Having worked on sites for over 15 years I was able to get lots of help from family and friends which kept the bill down. If I included a wage for myself for 2 years it would have took the bill up to £770 per sqm. The only issue with that was I was restricted by the bank by how much they would lend me so paying for trades wasn't really an option. Once the build was done I was totally exhausted and probably closer than I would like to admit to a physical and mental breakdown. Was near 6-9 months before I as much lifted a hammer or spade.

As well as your actual site the main factor in cost is your location. Prices for materials and trades vary widely across the UK with Northern Ireland being probably the cheapest region, lucky me!! 

Also the likes of eBay are great for hunting out deals for all your fixtures and fittings.

And never ever ever accept the first price that anyone gives you. 

[epsilonGreedy]

16 hours ago, ragg987 said:

In my opinion £900 is not possible if you are paying someone to do the build and all the other pieces I mention. It may be achievable if you do a large portion yourself, but then you need to balance the time you spend working on the build against the wages you can bring in to pay for the build.

 

I can dedicate 5 months full time to this project while hopefully making substantial progress towards 1st fix.

 

The next question is what specific input to make hands-on while I can be onsite.. I will start another thread on that subject.