oldkettle Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, newhome said: I'd be slightly careful about using this as justification as I believe that councils can restrict permitted development rights in certain circumstances so something to look into to see if that's likely for your property. Do you mean restrict as a condition of the first PP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 (edited) I would write to the planning officer copy the chairman of the planning committee pointing out the errors (Don't call them lies) in the planning officers report. Wherever possible compare your house to those around it already approved. Our application was helped by having a street scene drawing that showed our house and the buildings either side as viewed from the road. Two versions, one with trees and one without. Edited August 25, 2018 by Temp 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 31 minutes ago, oldkettle said: Do you mean restrict as a condition of the first PP? Yes they could grant you PP for the front and restrict permitted development rights as part of that PP meaning you may not be able to do the back under permitted development rights. They may not do that of course but worth considering that as a possibility and asking a planning consultant or similar how likely that might be if you use that as an argument for explaining why they may as well approve this current submission. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldkettle Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Temp said: I would write to the planning officer copy the chairman of the planning committee pointing out the errors (Don't call them lies) in the planning officers report. Wherever possible compare your house to those around it already approved. I had a significant number of emails sent to them both in the previous months. A few mentioned for example the 9.1m height issue as it has not changed from the first application. The planner ignored it completely. I guess I have little choice but try again hoping it'd be distributed to the other members. The chairman is the person who pulled our application so he will not vote unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldkettle Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 1 minute ago, newhome said: Yes they could grant you PP for the front and restrict permitted development rights as part of that PP meaning you may not be able to do the back under permitted development rights. They may not do that of course but worth considering that as a possibility and asking a planning consultant or similar how likely that might be if you use that as an argument for explaining why they may as well approve this current submission. Thanks. Well, this is certainly a reason not to mention this alternative if I were to speak. Regardless, the cost of this trick is prohibitive, if I had that much money I'd rather demolish and rebuild moving the house a bit back and digging it a bit deeper to address their fake concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 58 minutes ago, newhome said: I'd be slightly careful about using this as justification as I believe that councils can restrict permitted development rights in certain circumstances so something to look into to see if that's likely for your property. Save that argument for your appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 Sorry to put a spanner in the works. It does seem that the planner has made some mistakes, but if you are going to accuse him of errors, it is best to be certain. 1. I am not certain but I would think that the height of the house should be measured from the ground, not the GFL which is above ground due to the steps up. Is the ridge height not 9.1m above ground? 2. I don't think it is unreaosonable to state that the depth of the house is 13.25m if that is the depth of half the house. From the side the longest depth of the house will define how deep the house looks. Your arguments seem correct on the other stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 I went through the saga of having the ridge height checked for compliance with our planning permission condition. In our case, for the removal of doubt, ridge height was referenced to Ordnance Datum. If there is no reference point given, then arguably the condition is unenforceable. I think it's good practice to refer all levels to Ordnance Datum, just because it avoids all doubt and makes checking levels very easy indeed. A topo survey will always be referenced to Ordnance Datum, too, so that's often a handy way to get a relative datum that can be used for height measurement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldkettle Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 34 minutes ago, AliG said: Sorry to put a spanner in the works. It does seem that the planner has made some mistakes, but if you are going to accuse him of errors, it is best to be certain. 1. I am not certain but I would think that the height of the house should be measured from the ground, not the GFL which is above ground due to the steps up. Is the ridge height not 9.1m above ground? 2. I don't think it is unreaosonable to state that the depth of the house is 13.25m if that is the depth of half the house. From the side the longest depth of the house will define how deep the house looks. Your arguments seem correct on the other stuff. Thank you, @AliG. I do need to be certain and of course I'd not use the word lie when addressing the committee. 1. The issue here is he has measured from the bottom of the steps which are on the sloping ground hence even below the ground level. I'd also note that as the ground is sloping both forward and to the right we could easily add some ground level at the front - or more vegetation. On the left it is probably 25cm between the ground and GFL, on the right - 80. In the middle there are steps hence the ground level can't really be seen. But the more important point I was making was the couple of houses built recently nearby have comparable height, 8.5m GFL to ridge + some more below. And they are much closer to the neighbours and way taller as is clear from the picture. With regards to the length. What he claims somewhere else is our house can be seen from the north, left side. But this is a shorter side :-) In reality neither side can be seen, at least no more that a tiny part of the first floor plus roof, certainly not the scary "mass" of the two-storey 13m wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 @oldkettle we were in a very similar situation with errors stated in the planners refusal. A week before the Planning Committee hearing I hand delivered a document to each of the committee members outlining what I felt were errors and what we were trying to achieve with our build. At the hearing I spoke for three minutes reiterating what I had put in the document. The committee members overruled the Head of Planning and it was passed unanimously much to the annoyance of the Head of Planning who was furious. The planning department had concentrated so hard on refusing my application that they forgot to remove permitted development rights and allowed a balcony which originally they didn't want. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 @oldkettle I doubt very much that the planner will have 'lied' anyway. It's more likely that they will have just made mistakes due to lack of care and attention. That should hopefully work in your favour TBH. As @PeterStarck says above he was able to use those errors to consolidate his case. You have lots of time, energy and money invested in your own application and the decision is much more important to you than it is to any planner out there so concentrate on pulling together a good case and keep your eye on the end goal. You don't have long though so it's time to spend a decent chunk of the remaining time pulling together a well reasoned argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldkettle Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, PeterStarck said: @oldkettle we were in a very similar situation with errors stated in the planners refusal. A week before the Planning Committee hearing I hand delivered a document to each of the committee members outlining what I felt were errors and what we were trying to achieve with our build. At the hearing I spoke for three minutes reiterating what I had put in the document. The committee members overruled the Head of Planning and it was passed unanimously much to the annoyance of the Head of Planning who was furious. The planning department had concentrated so hard on refusing my application that they forgot to remove permitted development rights and allowed a balcony which originally they didn't want. Thank you, Peter. May I ask 1) How did you manage to deliver the letters in person? I.e. did you visit them at home? On a weekend or in the evening? 2) Was somebody speaking against your application or were you allowed to speak regardless? Our council states " If the objector fails to appear then the applicant/agent will not be entitled to speak." ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, oldkettle said: Thank you, Peter. May I ask 1) How did you manage to deliver the letters in person? I.e. did you visit them at home? On a weekend or in the evening? 2) Was somebody speaking against your application or were you allowed to speak regardless? Our council states " If the objector fails to appear then the applicant/agent will not be entitled to speak." ? Easy fix there, just get a friend to apply as an objector, and then stand up and basically support your application. That way you get your 3 minutes to make your points... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldkettle Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, newhome said: @oldkettle I doubt very much that the planner will have 'lied' anyway. It's more likely that they will have just made mistakes due to lack of care and attention. That should hopefully work in your favour TBH. As @PeterStarck says above he was able to use those errors to consolidate his case. You have lots of time, energy and money invested in your own application and the decision is much more important to you than it is to any planner out there so concentrate on pulling together a good case and keep your eye on the end goal. You don't have long though so it's time to spend a decent chunk of the remaining time pulling together a well reasoned argument. I had an exchange with the planner after the refusal of the original application trying to figure out how he arrived at his numbers and pointed out that the height was not measured fairly. He chose to ignore it. He had a proper fit just before the cut-off time for getting documents ready for the meeting claiming certain plans have not been updated when in fact they have been sent to him over a month back but he chose to ignore them. But IMHO most importantly claiming overdevelopment he showed malice, not lack of attention. Unless, of course, somebody points be towards a document which explains why this would actually make sense. I am trying to make my case and this is why I posted here, but at the moment I doubt very much I will be allowed to speak - see the citation above in response to Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldkettle Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Easy fix there, just get a friend to apply as an objector, and then stand up and basically support your application. That way you get your 3 minutes to make your points... I can honestly say I have considered this already. I think I could ask my neighbour to speak in support - he is a very nice person. Not sure what the reaction would be, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 1 minute ago, oldkettle said: I can honestly say I have considered this already. I think I could ask my neighbour to speak in support - he is a very nice person. Not sure what the reaction would be, though. No harm in that I guess, or someone else. She could be an objector and then when asked to speak she could say she objects to the permission being refused . Or something inconsequential that would have no little or no bearing on the decision like noise whilst the work is going on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 It surely can't be right that you are only allowed to present your case if someone objects? That's very poor. The planners object so you should be able to speak IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldkettle Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, newhome said: It surely can't be right that you are only allowed to present your case if someone objects? That's very poor. The planners object so you should be able to speak IMO. It is bad but may be I misunderstand the rules, have to check with the councillor. The way it's worded on their site is not perfect ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 26 minutes ago, oldkettle said: I can honestly say I have considered this already. I think I could ask my neighbour to speak in support - he is a very nice person. Not sure what the reaction would be, though. In my experience, absolutely anything goes when it comes to planning committee meetings. I've seen some outrageous behaviour, one case where I accidentally overheard a developer stating quite clearly that he'd "paid a bung" to one or more of the committee members (in the presence of a local journalist, who was as gobsmacked as me), I've seen applicants rig up an array of supporters speaking from pre-prepared scripts, people openly lie in front of the committee in order to try and make their point, you name it, it goes on. I'd have no reservations at all in getting someone to stand and speak. If any member of the public registers an interest in expressing their view at a planning committee meeting then I believe that automatically gives the applicant a right to reply. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 45 minutes ago, oldkettle said: Thank you, Peter. May I ask 1) How did you manage to deliver the letters in person? I.e. did you visit them at home? On a weekend or in the evening? 2) Was somebody speaking against your application or were you allowed to speak regardless? Our council states " If the objector fails to appear then the applicant/agent will not be entitled to speak." ? We asked one of our parish councillors who wasn't on the Planning Committee to support our application and he spoke in our favour at the hearing. Nobody ever objected to our application except the Planning Department. We obtained the names and addresses of the Planning Committee from the council website and took the document to their home addresses during the day and put them through the letterbox. The committee made a site visit and we had a presentation showing all the drawings and a scale model. We also marked out with spray paint on the ground the footprint of the proposed building. We were not allowed to speak to any of the committee members but the planners had a representative from another area supporting their claims. We also had support at the site meeting from the Parish Council. We didn't previously know any of the committee members or people at the site meeting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, oldkettle said: I had a significant number of emails sent to them both in the previous months. A few mentioned for example the 9.1m height issue as it has not changed from the first application. The planner ignored it completely. I guess I have little choice but try again hoping it'd be distributed to the other members. The chairman is the person who pulled our application so he will not vote unfortunately. You can either copy the other members yourself or send it to the secretary who should do it for you if you ask. Tell her it's for the next meeting. I would make it a letter rather than an email even if that's how you send it to them. Edited August 26, 2018 by Temp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) If you want to hand deliverh.. There will be a list of committee members on the council web site somewhere and elsewhere another database/list with their addresses and contact details. Edited August 28, 2018 by Temp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldkettle Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 14 minutes ago, Temp said: If you want to hand deliverh.. There will be a list of committee members on the council web site somewhere and elsewhere another database/list with their addresses and contact details. Thank you. I know how to get this information but I am not sure whether people would misinterpret it as "I know where you live" message. Not sure how large Peter's council is but ours is reasonably large so most councillors probably have no idea where we are. Still putting together the message. Went to neighbours with a similarly positioned house asking whether I could measure theirs for comparison, got a very polite "no" as they are worried the planners would retaliate (for helping me) when they ask for PP of their own. I understand them but the situation where we the public are afraid of public servants' retaliation is quite ridiculous. The neighbours recommended superimposing Google images instead which is what I am trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Have any of the neighbours with similar sized houses ever applied for PP in recent years? If so you may find plans of their respective houses on the planning portal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldkettle Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 1 minute ago, newhome said: Have any of the neighbours with similar sized houses ever applied for PP in recent years? If so you may find plans of their respective houses on the planning portal. Yeah, I tried that, started there. Most applications are quite old and the scanned copies are so bad. You can't figure out what the scale is and the numbers are completely unreadable. I am not a big fan of getting out of the house and talking to people in person ? so I try anything to avoid it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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