New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040

[curlewhouse]

"As much as I like old cars I do feel that running them until they are truly dead is better than trading in after 3 years and scrapping after 10. My cars have 188k,193k and 234k. I feel no guilt that they are theoretically worse for the planet.  "   -  I feel like this about my 21 year old Landrover Defender. Sure it drinks diesel, but how many cars have been made and died in it's lifetime, whilst its still going strong? As I'm not doing huge mileages in it these days, I think it would be interesting to compare energy consumed in the running and manufacturing of the 2 or 4 cars it has so far outlived (so far!) even factoring in it's fuel consumption. I'm also convinced that the current crop of microprocessor controlled cars will be uneconomical to fix by maybe 5 years old due to the insane parts costs, and thus scrapped despite having perfectly good engines and bodies.   Not green at all! 

[ToughButterCup]

I think I'm right in saying that there isn't one original piece of metal of any sort in in my 1980s Defender. All of it has been 'updated' at some time or other. Not sure if that's ecologically sound. Financially necessary, though.

 

I will cheerfully replace it when the main build is finished, and buy a bath chair. Electric of course.

[ProDave]

My 1972 Landrover was rebuilt a few years ago on a new galvanised chassis. As far as I know everything else is original though I expect the bulkhead will have been repaired and probably new floor pans in the process.

 

A friend of mine has a similarly rebuilt early LR90, that pre dates the "defender" name. He even went as far as a galvanised bulkhead.

 

If you are so inclined these vehicles can be repaired and rebuilt much easier than most other classic cars. And the best bit, if they still look a bit tatty, well nobody ever expected a Landrover to look all nice and shiny.

 

This present LR of mine I am sure is worth more now than when I bought it. No "ordinary" car can do that, and I don't have the money for a true classic.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

In my case the reasons were pretty much forced by my choice of career.  When I joined the Scientific Civil Service, I effectively signed a contract with what was called a "mobility clause".  Like most, I never gave it a second thought, as it hadn't actually been invoked since WWII, and was a hang-over from then. 

 

I was familliar with mobile grades, I was one for many years. There was always the threat of a posting to Dounereay if they wanted to get rid of someone.  Strangely it was only when leaving that employment and  working for industry that I found a regular need to change job and that involved commuting, but never felt any job offered enough security to make it worthwhile moving house.

[Roger440]

22 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I've never run out of battery charge in over three years of driving.  The pattern of "refuelling" is very different, and means a change in thinking.  Weekdays I charge twice a day, overnight at home, during the day away.  Weekends the car stays on charge at home unless we're going somewhere.  I've never felt the need to charge at a filling station.  When on holiday I've always been able to charge somewhere, it's never been a problem.

 

The only issue is the occasional long journey.  If your driving pattern involves driving hundreds of miles a day, then current electric technology doesn't cut it.  However, for the vast majority of people, something like 90% or more of their driving is within the range of even some of the lowest range electric cars.  The problem is one of people getting their heads around the idea of changing the whole way they use and "fuel" cars.  I happen to think it's a hell of a lot more convenient to just open the charge door and plug the cable almost every time I get out of the car, than it is to faff around at a garage, filling the thing with petrol, queuing to pay, etc.

 

To be fair, that you havn't run out of charge is no surprise. But you are not "mr normal" and i mean that in the nicest possible way. Mr normals manage to run out of petrol never mind battery charge.

 

Hear what you say about it being suitable for 90% of journeys. True, But what about the other 10%. They still need to be made. Clearly having 2 cars is a solution, but i dont think a good chunk of the population having 2 cars is any kind of answer.

11 hours ago, jack said:

 

That leaves the Renault Zoe. Cheaper even than the Leaf, better(ish) looking, and with a decent range. However, I'm concerned about buying a French car. My first car was a Peugeot, and the horrific experience I had with that has put me right off French cars for good. Since then, I've always had Toyotas. Boring as hell, but my god they just go on for ever.

 

Why did Nissan make the current Leaf so ugly?! 

 

Dont buy a french car. It cant end well!!!!

 

Why is the Leaf so ugly. Same reason that so many "eco house type projects" such as a new or innovative build system seem to insist on looking like they landed from another planet, when really, the bulk of he buying public want a house that looks like a house is expected to look like. 

11 hours ago, gravelld said:

 

Don't count me in your "we".

 

You do imply something of import; that even if behaviour is undesirable, it is still done.

 

However, you have to remember that no advances in the history of civilization have been perfect. Thinking up scenarios that might not work in the status quo when using electric vehicles is easy to do; but it's whether they actually matter that is important. Some things you think are important may not be once people get used to them, workarounds are found, or some other (metaphorical) seismic shift means they are irrelevant. For example, by 2040 truck drivers may not even exist.

I dont see driving 200 miles as undesirable. Though actual time spent would be a better measure.

 

Accepted. Indeed, bizarre as it might seem, i sometimes find myself trying to imagine the consequences of so much of the developing technology. Stuff will happen that we cant even imagine. In the meantime with cars, i'll wait until a truly viable system exists that meets my needs.

 

5 hours ago, jamiehamy said:

That's my issue with this whole idea that we save the planet by changing from buying 1.3m new petrol cars a year in the UK to buying 1.3m electric ones. Of course it helps in one respect assuming generation from fossil fuel stops. 

 

But Until we address our greed for goods and treating even high value items  like cars as disposable,  we are not taking the issue seriously enough. 

 

As much as I like old cars I do feel that running them until they are truly dead is better than trading in after 3 years and scrapping after 10. My cars have 188k,193k and 234k. I feel no guilt that they are theoretically worse for the planet. 

 

Too much corporate opportunism in 'saving the planet' for my liking. Thi k about it - if manufacturers can sell over a million cars a year basically replacing like for like,  imagine the bonanza they are in for to when electric really takes off! 

 

Sadly, i have to agree with most of that!

 

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

The next environmental issue is disposing / recycling millions of end of life batteries.......

 

Yep!

 

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

This talk of usual journey distance is a bit of a nonsense when it comes to range anxiety.

I could do 90% of my journeys on a gallon of diesel.  It is the other 10% that I need the flexibility.

When I travel up country to visit my mother 300 miles away, I do the journey in one stint.  I leave early and have a simple 4 hour or so drive.  No need to stop.  Sometimes I pop into see some friends in Chipping Norton, adding a few miles to the journey and two trips via Oxford.  I still don't have to 'fill up'.

I really don't like driving, but breaking a journey I find even worse.  I worked for Welcome Break as a contractor, though there is nothing wrong with their services, I am in now hurry to visit them, ever.

 

I know a Tesla owner (the one that got hit), and he claims (via a third party) that he can get to Bristol on a single charge.  Hell, I can get to London and back on a single tank.

 

I think range is everything when it comes to cars (well apart from handling, grip, noise levels, acceptable performance (my old Suzuki Swift 3 pot was a great runner) and fuel economy).  I had a motorbike that struggles to do 120 miles on a tank, it was hopeless for touring.

 

 

 Better put than i did up there ^^^^ Its about the 10% for me.

[Crofter]

If you're worried about the 10%, buy a hybrid. Nobody's banning them.

[Onoff]

Interesting piece in yesterday's paper how big name companies etc (Ford was one mentioned) pay sci-fi novel writers, some well known Nebula winners included, to come up with stories envisaging how products in the company's etc sphere might develop. They then discuss this with their own teams.

 

Even the Army were presented with a sci-fi scenario dreamt up whereby China had genetically engineered their soldiers to emit "fear" pheromones.

 

Pretty sure there were some energy companies named too. 

[Onoff]

Can I recommend to all you EV users the "XLR8" app!

 

If you dab a bit of unleaded around the inside of the car you'll enhance the experience.

 

 

 

[Roger440]

26 minutes ago, Crofter said:

If you're worried about the 10%, buy a hybrid. Nobody's banning them.

 

Errr, yes they are. Included in the 2040 ban.

[Crofter]

Just now, Roger440 said:

 

Errr, yes they are. Included in the 2040 ban.

 

Errr, no, they are not included in the 2040 ban.

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/07/26/uk-hybrid-internal-combustion-engine-ban/

[Roger440]

1 minute ago, Crofter said:

 

Errr, no, they are not included in the 2040 ban.

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/07/26/uk-hybrid-internal-combustion-engine-ban/

 

Ok, thats an interesting update. No cause for alarm then. Nice Mclaren P1 should cover it then

[gravelld]

12 hours ago, Roger440 said:

I dont see driving 200 miles as undesirable. Though actual time spent would be a better measure.

 

That's not what I meant. I was saying stopping for only 3/4 minutes to refuel after each 200 miles was undesirable. You need longer breaks - it's not a case of "I'm alright" - it's a limit you and we all have being human.

 

Quote

Accepted. Indeed, bizarre as it might seem, i sometimes find myself trying to imagine the consequences of so much of the developing technology. Stuff will happen that we cant even imagine. In the meantime with cars, i'll wait until a truly viable system exists that meets my needs.

 

This is the reality of human existence and progress. Which isn't to say we can't counterbalance through various means such as democratic legislation and regulation. An example of this is realising transport has to change, and therefore might be forced to change, even if you don't think the new systems "meet your needs".

 

Similar thing needs to happen with housing performance, back on topic!

Edited August 3, 2017 by gravelld

[Jeremy Harris]

11 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Ok, thats an interesting update. No cause for alarm then. Nice Mclaren P1 should cover it then

 

Not an update, the wording of the original paper that was the cause of the media misreporting made it clear that the proposed new model sales restriction was only on conventional petrol and diesel engined cars.  All alternative fuel vehicles, hybrids, non-conventional petrol and diesel engined cars, as well as electric cars, are not included in the proposed restriction, and never were.

[ProDave]

6 minutes ago, gravelld said:

 

That's not what I meant. I was saying stopping for only 3/4 minutes to refuel after each 200 miles was undesirable. You need longer breaks - it's not a case of "I'm alright" - it's a limit you and we all have being human.

 

We frequently drive form the Highlands to England or Wales. The one thing you miss out on wanting short stops to speed up the journey is there are usually 2 of us in the car, both drivers. One can hapilly rest or sleep while the other is driving. The only stops are to refuel the car or empty one's bladder. Eating and drinking by the resting driver is done in the car on the move.

 

For this sort of journey, the EV would not cut the mustard. This is where the deal of offering a period of free rental of an IC car comes in perhaps?

[Ferdinand]

6 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

Not an update, the wording of the original paper that was the cause of the media misreporting made it clear that the proposed new model sales restriction was only on conventional petrol and diesel engined cars.  All alternative fuel vehicles, hybrids, non-conventional petrol and diesel engined cars, as well as electric cars, are not included in the proposed restriction, and never were.

 

Media misreporting? Not possible!

[Crofter]

30 minutes ago, ProDave said:

We frequently drive form the Highlands to England or Wales. The one thing you miss out on wanting short stops to speed up the journey is there are usually 2 of us in the car, both drivers. One can hapilly rest or sleep while the other is driving. The only stops are to refuel the car or empty one's bladder. Eating and drinking by the resting driver is done in the car on the move.

 

For this sort of journey, the EV would not cut the mustard. This is where the deal of offering a period of free rental of an IC car comes in perhaps?

 

That's actually a good point- we have done such trips in the past and work a watch system. But I wonder how common it is for couples to do this?

[gravelld]

39 minutes ago, ProDave said:

We frequently drive form the Highlands to England or Wales. The one thing you miss out on wanting short stops to speed up the journey is there are usually 2 of us in the car, both drivers. One can hapilly rest or sleep while the other is driving. The only stops are to refuel the car or empty one's bladder. Eating and drinking by the resting driver is done in the car on the move.

 

For this sort of journey, the EV would not cut the mustard. This is where the deal of offering a period of free rental of an IC car comes in perhaps?

 

Yep, sounds like your scenario it would be a pain. But... *shrugs*.

 

Maybe free rental is a way around it. But there are countless other possibilities which may be technical fixes, workarounds or re-inventions, waiting to be discovered. That is why people who think finite growth is a reality are wrong, at least on the level us puny humans can countenance.

[Jeremy Harris]

13 minutes ago, Crofter said:

 

That's actually a good point- we have done such trips in the past and work a watch system. But I wonder how common it is for couples to do this?

 

 

We don't do this, really because my other half doesn't like driving very long distances, plus we both like to have a proper break for a meal and hot drink on a very long trip.

 

It's worth noting that the proposed sales restriction is not forcing a situation where only electric cars can be sold, it's just restricting the market for new models released after the proposed date to those with ultra low emissions.  If a petrol or diesel engine can be developed that meets the proposed ULEV limit then it can still be sold after this date.

[IanR]

On 7/26/2017 at 09:44, IanR said:

perhaps Germany is dragging its feet due to the strength of their automotive manufacturing lobby.

 

Angela has been giving the Automotive industry in Germany a bit of a hard time on the run up to their elections and she's now suggesting that Germany should follow France and UK's lead.

 

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20170814/ANE/170819892/merkel-sees-germany-joining-gasoline-diesel-car-bans?cciid=email-ane-daily

 

As a pan-European ban it may well work out. I can't imagine the US making any similar statements until Trump has gone.

[SteamyTea]

Di-Lithium batteries can't come soon enough:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-40922321

 

[AliG]

Are those like Dilithium crystals captain?

[SteamyTea]

Di is the name of the Welsh miner that they are going to use to get them out.

[MikeSharp01]

On 8/15/2017 at 15:10, SteamyTea said:

Di is the name of the Welsh miner that they are going to use to get them out.

Just saw on the BBC that there is a company looking to extract the lithium from old Cornish mine water! What is the generic name for a Cornish man / woman because that will be the prefix for Lithium from Cornwall.

[Jeremy Harris]

19 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Just saw on the BBC that there is a company looking to extract the lithium from old Cornish mine water! What is the generic name for a Cornish man / woman because that will be the prefix for Lithium from Cornwall.

 

Cousin Jack

[MikeSharp01]

Ok CJ-Lithium then.... not quite star trek!