Tennentslager Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Any pointers from the collective wisdom? Our huts have recently been revalued and the RV has climbed from c£600 per hut to c£2k. Its not really a problem as you get 100% rates relief if all your RV properties are below the small business rates threshold of £15k, so each hutter can claim 100% relief. However, this year for the first time the SAA (Scottish Assessors Association) has put a value on VACANT sites. The community company has 26 odd empty sites with nothing built on them. We always thought that vacant land did not have a value for rating. The SAA are relying on a new Practice Note (link below) which says huts are valued on a combination of site location quality and hut size and condition. https://www.saa.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Holiday-Huts-Sheds-Bothies-etc_R2017_MPC25.pdf Any legal eagles know if SAA can impose a valuation on a vacant site? We can/may/will appeal the valuations as collectively they put the community company over the rebate threshold and we have a whacking great rates bill to pay which we can ill afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Back of fag packet maths. If a vacant plot is "worth" the same £2K rates valuation, then 26 vacant plots = a rateable value of £52K Split the vacant plots between 4 owners, so 6, 6, 7 and 7 per owner = below the threshold and all owners can claim a 100% rebate. More "money for old rope" grabbing by our lovely Scottish government Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennentslager Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, ProDave said: Back of fag packet maths. If a vacant plot is "worth" the same £2K rates valuation, then 26 vacant plots = a rateable value of £52K Split the vacant plots between 4 owners, so 6, 6, 7 and 7 per owner = below the threshold and all owners can claim a 100% rebate. More "money for old rope" grabbing by our lovely Scottish government Very true but does involve the community company 'giving' assets away. I think it could be possible but might be seen as illegal avoidance of rates/tax. We could advertise half of the sites for immediate sale...got a big waiting list but it hasn't been our past policy which has been for slow release and steady development of 4 to 6 sites per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennentslager Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 7 minutes ago, ProDave said: More "money for old rope" grabbing by our lovely Scottish government Oh the rates go to the Local Authority, the SAA is independent of the LA and its the Scottish Government that introduced the small business rates relief scheme. Not them this time that are guilty of grabbing our money:-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tennentslager said: Any pointers from the collective wisdom? Our huts have recently been revalued and the RV has climbed from c£600 per hut to c£2k. Its not really a problem as you get 100% rates relief if all your RV properties are below the small business rates threshold of £15k, so each hutter can claim 100% relief. However, this year for the first time the SAA (Scottish Assessors Association) has put a value on VACANT sites. The community company has 26 odd empty sites with nothing built on them. We always thought that vacant land did not have a value for rating. The SAA are relying on a new Practice Note (link below) which says huts are valued on a combination of site location quality and hut size and condition. https://www.saa.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Holiday-Huts-Sheds-Bothies-etc_R2017_MPC25.pdf Any legal eagles know if SAA can impose a valuation on a vacant site? We can/may/will appeal the valuations as collectively they put the community company over the rebate threshold and we have a whacking great rates bill to pay which we can ill afford. Comment on the RV. What happens if you make them agricultural? Eg sheep? More generally, given your profile and 1000 Huts etc and how the SG have been facilitating it (?) is there not an opportunity for an embarrassing media campaign against either local or national govt? Doesn't Carbeth have 'national symbol' status, as if they were threatening the existence of the first football club or to cut down the Major Oak or the Tolpuddle Martyrs Tree? Get the MP or MSP on board? Put forward a petition to the Holyrood Petitions Committee about the excessive valuation of vacant hut plots? Online petition? Ferdinand Edited July 14, 2017 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stones Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tennentslager said: Oh the rates go to the Local Authority, the SAA is independent of the LA and its the Scottish Government that introduced the small business rates relief scheme. Not them this time that are guilty of grabbing our money:-) But they do bear some responsibility for the current issues, they delayed the revaluation date, and they tinkered with the various exemptions. The net result, Scottish businesses are paying the same amount (roughly) overall, but the burden, as highlighted in this instance, is falling in a different way. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38991273 There are always winners and losers when any change is made, and several examples like this have already been raised by constituency MSPs at Holyrood. Certainly worth raising with your MSP, and appealing. Edited July 14, 2017 by Stones Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Follow this "logic" to it's conclusion, and they will be charging Council tax on a building plot as soon as PP is granted (based on the value of the house proposed) wedge, thin end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 It appears, reading the rules that vacancies sites are given a value as they could be rented out presumably for someone to camp on. The mistake seems to be pre splitting the sites. If you could argue that the value of a camp site was lower through evidence then you could maybe have them revalued down. Alternatively you could do something that renders them not useful as individual sites at the moment, for example turning them into some kind of communal space such as a picnic area until such time as you want to actually release them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 I am currently applying for a Change of Use for a business premises, and down here our local MP has been very supportive as it is a new local startup. The one thing the MP said was that they can help use, but we need to be *very* clear about exactly what we need, and ideally to show that it will fit in with the grain of local policy (which makes it easy for the Council to find a way to help us). ie specific not general request, even if informed by evidence from elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennentslager Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 Thanks everyone...first step is to submit the appeals and see what response we get. I'll update as we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 What happens if the hutter isn't running their hut as a small business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 (edited) Not sure if this helps unless you can beat them down from £2000 to £1700 http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20158/business_rate_reductions/758/non-domestic_business_rates_and_empty_properties Extracts.. Quote "Non-domestic (business) rates and empty properties" "..the Council can grant 50% relief of rates for a maximum of 3 months. When properties remain empty longer than 3 months, 90% of the property charge is billed." "Certain categories may be exempt from the 90% property charge. These are listed below.." "properties with a rateable value of less than £1,700" "properties prohibited by law from occupation" Does your planning permission have any conditions that might prohibit occupation until a hut is erected? Does the design of each hut have to be approved for example? Edited July 15, 2017 by Temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennentslager Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 Thanks @Temp I knew about empty relief below £1700. There are many complexities here. 1. The estate is in a conservation area and planning can only be given for sites that once had a hut. We have old maps showing around 200 huts at one time, currently there are 150 so we reckon around 40 or more we can still let. 2. None of these vacant sites has planning permission. Carbeth is an old place and huts have been here since 1905, before modern planning legislation. New huts built in the last decade or so all have planning permission. 3. The practice note clearly states RV for sites but when is a site a 'site' and when is it just some rough land? Presumably the Assessors have some historical records of a huts being on some sites (their plan data does confer with the maps we hold in most cases) and therefore previously had a entry in the valuation roll. Some of these sites have had nothing on them since the 1950's. 4. My reading of rates legislation all seems to imply RV on the rental value of buildings but I cannot find anything clear about the rental value of land. Remember the thread about land value tax? I guess the implication is that land is not rateable. I think we will need professional advice but if the appeals we have made ( did 27 of them this morning) reduce the RV to below £1700 and we must have a good chance of achieving this, the whole issue will go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 (edited) You are set up as a Community Interest Company? If so, it is common for these to get Discretionary Business Rates Relief of up to 100% from Local Authorities. See:https://cicassoc.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2691611%3ABlogPost%3A5640&page=1#comments I sense a trip down Alice's rabbit hole will be required. For England (and it may be UK wide) the association to talk to (are you members already) is called CICA: Community Interest Companies Association as per the above link, and their website is a Ning community. You may get help from Senscot - http://www.senscot.net/view_art.php?viewid=8949 . These guys are Scottish Social Entrepreneurs, who are often set up as CICs. If you get through this there may be value in claiming back rates paid unnecessarily since 2008 or whenever! Ferdinand Edited July 15, 2017 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 (edited) If you can't get it below £1700... Quote None of these vacant sites has planning permission. That sure sounds like they would be "prohibited from occupation by law". PS: I would appeal the valuation on the grounds that they cannot be "vacant hut sites" because they don't have planning permission for a hut. They probably didn't know that they don't have PP. PPS: Would they value each site at £20m if you said you planned to drill for oil but hadn't got planning permission yet? Edited July 15, 2017 by Temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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